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Posts posted by krow36

  1. AXA and Met Life may tell you that they offer mutual funds in their annuities. Their annuities usually have added high expense ratios, often over 1%, also an M&E fee of 1% and also an admin fee. 

    You may avoid some of these fees by choosing a Fixed Annuity, but that earns a very low return, and isn’t invested in the stock or bond mkts.

  2. I have another few minutes of wifi. If you can find another district employee that will ask for the low cost CalSTRS 457 option that would help get it added. Also, ask to talk to someone higher up. Be nice, but keep at it.

    It is very reasonable that the district employees should be able to contribute to a mutual fund based 457, not just an expensive annuity based 457. You may have to educate them about this. 

    I think it’s likely that you would be ahead by moving your AXA 403b balance to your Vanguard 403b. Even if there’s a surrender fee. If you are likely paying 2% or more per year, you might be ahead by paying the surrender fee. 

    Are you familiar with the 403b.compare.com website? It is also run by CalSTRS. All venders are required to list all the fees of their 403b plans. Check to to see if the Met Life 403b offerings are similar to their 457 offerings. 

  3. I have WiFi for only a few minutes. You need to ck into the 403bwise forum. CA teachers have access to 457 plan run by your pension plan, CalSTRS. They may be on your 403b vendor list. Don’t accept a not possible. It IS possible if you keep pushing. TALK TO THE FOLKS ON THE 493b FORUM!!  Your reasons for liking the 457 are valid. 

  4. tnewin, welcome to the forum. Sorry for the delay in getting a reply to your questions. I'm traveling in Canada with only rare wifi. I suggest you ask further questions on the 403bwise forum, as this 457 forum doesn't get near as much attention. Folks on both forums that have experienced what you are dealing with.

    The first thing you should be aware of is that 457 plans (like 403b plans) can be either annuity based or mutual fund based. You should avoid the much more expensive annuity products. On MM's fees and ERs, you'll have to dig it out from the rep. He should refer you to online verification of the fees. I would strongly recommend that you do not sign up for anything at the meeting with the advisor. Just get information. Are you contributing to a 403b and maxing it? If not, that would be a good idea before using an expensive 457. Are there low-cost vendors for the 403b? Adding a 457 vendor usually involves talking the HR office and any third party administrator.

    What state are you in? About half the states have state-run low-cost 457 plans that are available to school district employees. If your state does have such a 457 plan, it's often relatively easy to get it added to the vendor list. 

    Any questions are welcome! We all started at an elementary level and most of us have lost a lot of money in the process of investing. Most of us are teachers, retired teachers or teachers' spouses.  

  5. 3 hours ago, KarenSLP said:

    Honestly, I have no idea how much I am currently paying in fees. I tried getting the information from the SB site but it was very confusing. It looked like about 2.5% plus underlying fund operating expenses .8-1.2% for each subaccount. This should be illegal, but is all too common with these variable annuities. Total fees of about 3.5% is outrageous. 

    This is what I found:  Contingent Deferred Sales Charge. If you withdraw Contract Value, the Company may deduct a contingent
    deferred sales charge (which may also be referred to as a withdrawal charge) on the withdrawal of Purchase Payments.

    Contract Year of Purchase Payment Being Withdrawn /Withdrawal Charge
    1 8%
    2 7%
    3 6%
    4 5%
    5 4%
    6 3%
    7 2%
    8 1%
    9 and later 0%

    Does this mean any amount paid in years 1---20 have a 0 % surrender fee? Only the last 9 years of purchases will have the surrender charge? Yes, I will call SB for total surrender fee. Yes, only the last 8 years will have the surrender fee. This is what is called a "rolling surrender fee". If you contributed the same amount for each of the 8 years, the overall surrender fee might work out to about 4% of those 8 years of contributions. 

    The Vanguard account I opened  was a 403b. OK, that's good. I think you may want to transfer your account to Vanguard, and be rid of having to deal with SB at all. If I were you I would stop contributions to the SB Variable Annuity tomorrow. Call up Vanguard and start the transfer process. They will send you info on their 403b transfer forms. You will no doubt have to fill out transfer forms for SB also. Does your district use a Third Party Administrator? If so, they may have forms to fill out also. This process will probably take weeks, maybe more than a month--it's hard to predict. Each party's forms may have to be signed by you and the other parties?? It's hard to be patient, but you will feel so good when you have escaped SB!

    Until you can make contributions to a Vanguard 403b, you could make contributions to an IRA if you are not already doing so. Or to a taxable account for retirement at Vanguard.

    I was hoping I could avoid the surrender charge by changing SB accounts ( VB annuity to nea direct invest)....wishful thinking? Probably. I'd be surprised if SB waived the surrender fees for a transfer from their VA to the NEA Direct Invest. I guess it doesn't hurt to ask for a waiver. 

    The 3.5% fee times $205,000 is $7,175 per year. Vanguard will charge an admin fee of $60 per year and about 0.05% expense ratio, or $60 plus $104 for a total fo $164. You probably know that Vanguard has contracted out their school district 403b plans to Newport Group. Vanguard (and Newport Group) do not use reps that sell on commission like SB does. 


    Thank you!


  6. 1 hour ago, KarenSLP said:

    I began my TSA in 1991 and have faithfully contributed every year. The value is around $205,000. It has a 9 year non-rolling surrender fee ( I believe). I will not retire for 4-5 years and will not need to draw from this account for at least 10 years. I found out that my employer offers Vanguard in the 403b list of providers and have opened an account for future withdraws. I was hoping to get some advice about my current TSA and/or if  I should contact a fee based financial advisor for help.




    You could transfer your 403b account with SB to a Vanguard 403b if Vanguard is on the list. What kind of account did you open at Vanguard? IRA, taxable Individual or 403b? You'll get advice here from other retired and working teachers. This website maintains a list of fee-only Certified Financial Advisors that have been checked out. It's at the top of the forum topics

  7. 1 hour ago, KarenSLP said:

    Hello!  I am a school based speech and language therapist with over 30 years of teaching in the Pa public schools. I was about to begin fully funding my Security Benefits Variflex Variable Annuity when I found your information and  podcasts. Thank you!!!! I have been listening to them all!  I now know variable annuity plans are very expensive with many hidden fees.   I am wondering though if it is ever a good idea just to hold on to a variable annuity (Does years of paying high fees get me anything of value??????).


    Because of the ongoing fees of the SB variable annuity (VA), I don't think there's a reason that is good enough to hang on to it. I would guess that you are paying at least 2% per year in fees. Every fund has an expense ratio (ER) and your VA probably has a "mortality & expense" fee of about 1%. By transferring your variable annuity to the SB NEA Direct Invest, your only fees will be the Vanguard Admiral class index fund expense ratio of about 0.05%. That's about $4,100 for the VA, and about $104 for NEA DI, every year!

    Do you know the surrender fee schedule? If the fee varies over the 9 years, it's probably a rolling surrender fee. That means that last year's contributions might have a 9% fee, and contributions made 8 years ago might have a 1% fee? You really need to know the total surrender fee in order to decide whether to pull the band-aid off and transfer it all, or just transfer that amount that is surrender fee free. You can call SB and ask for this info. 

  8. Sorry I have no experience with your situation, but I'll give your thread a push. In general I would rank your retirement ahead of your child's post-grad schooling. Is your 403b plan with a low-cost vendor? Are you invested with say at least 50 to 60% in equities, so that your account is growing significantly? By withdrawing 24k, you will slow the account's growth rate won't you? 

  9. On 4/30/2019 at 10:31 PM, Andrey said:

    I have 403(b) plan with Vanguard. It was 0 cost for a while, but I noticed that for a year or two, they started to charge me $60 annual fee. Is it legal? How can I fight it?

    Thank you 🙂

    Of course it's legal. Their previous 403b fee was $25 per fund per year I think, which could easily add up to more than $60. There is now no per fund set fee, just the $60/yr and each fund's low expense ratio. Their ERs are still between 5 and 10 times less expensive than the industry's average. Either fee schedule is a bargain. They have added a Roth 403b option and have Admiral class available.

    Granted, the $60/yr fee is a high percentage of a $10,000 account balance (0.6%), but is only 0.06% fee on a $100,000 account balance. Maybe that will help motivate you get your 403b balance up here! That's how you "can fight it".

  10. 5 hours ago, MoeMoney said:


    You are right. However, since contributing to a Roth IRA in 2018 before knowing your MAGI, and then filing taxes (on time or not) you have 6 months from April 15 2019 to "correct" the contribution without incurring a 10%withdrawal penalty. You will, however, have to pay a 6% penalty on any gains earned. 

    (Was this an answer on another thread?)

    Yes, another thread!!? I'm loosing it! My apologies. I'm glad to learn about avoiding the 10% withdrawal penalty for 6 months after April 15. So the 10% penalty is because you are under 59 1/2? And the 6% is the penalty for withdrawing gains from a non-qualified Roth IRA, meaning your first Roth contribution is <5 yrs old. Is that right? 

  11. 4 hours ago, whyme said:

    This is a good thing that you are doing, P.J.

    One thought about your draft: I think some teachers may turn off when reading the line about "you will make your own choices."  Many are clueless and feel that they definitely need help with investing, which makes them prey to "financial planning" from annuity salespeople and such.

    So if there is a way to sneak in a generic recommendation that makes the whole process seem simple and "idiot-proof," I think that might provoke more people to accept your advice. 

    Maybe something along these lines, unless there is a legal or personal reason not to make a specific recommendation:

    "To enroll in one of these plans, you do not require any help from a company sales representative.  (Financial sales reps are notorious for steering teachers into high cost products from which the salespeople draw commissions and bonuses.)  When enrolling, you will choose how much of each paycheck to direct into the 403b (I suggest 10% or more, but you can change this at any time) and which investment option to fund.  One good choice is a Target Date fund.  Pick one with a date close to the year you expect to retire.  (Your investment choices can be changed at any time if your investment goals change.)  A target date fund provides a low cost all-in-one diversified investment portfolio that becomes more conservative as you approach retirement.  It is rebalanced automatically, it is funded automatically with each paycheck and once enrolled, it requires virtually no further action from you."

    If the NEA Direct Invest plan offered low-cost Vanguard target date funds, I think I would agree with whyme. However, unlike the Lincoln plan's Vanguard TR funds, NEA DI's target date funds are TR Price actively-managed funds with ERs between 0.79% and 0.97%. Suggesting them would conflict with the very low-cost index fund message. 

    None of the links seem to work?

  12. I think you've done a great job, sticking to the essentials. Have you considered placing the "PLEASE NOTE:" after the plans? The LI PDP could include a comment: "This platform is also available for a 457 plan for no additional annual fee."

    I wish Dan would include an example of lower fees, at least as low as 0.09%, in the bar graph. Of course the average Vanguard fees for a 3 fund portfolio is probably about 0.06% or less? The "average index fund" fees have probably come down since the graph was made? In any case, a difference of over $200,00 should serve to get their attention. 

    In the paragraph below the graph where you introduce the 2 plans, maybe you should mention that Vanguard index funds fees are below average, around 0.05% to 0.10%. That would tie the graph to the reason the 2 plans have outstandingly low cost. 

    Is the LI PDP annual fee $60 or $35 in NJ? Or does it vary?


    Make all 403b with small b.

    " " around the NYT article title.

    ". . . a rep from either these companies. . ."

    "The plan gives . . ."

  13. Unfortunately I think filing an extension on your 2018 return will not allow you contribute to an IRA for 2018 after April 2019.




    Your tax return filing deadline (not including extensions). For example, you can make 2018 IRA contributions until April 15, 2019.








    Contribution Deadline

    Tax-filing extensions do not apply to your IRA contributions, except for SEP-IRA contributions. This means that your contributions must be deposited by your tax filing due date, which is usually April 15.



    I was also under the impression that an extension allowed an IRA contribution so a relative I help missed out on a contribution for 2018. A contribution to their taxable account for retirement was accepted as next best.

  14. As jebjebitz suggested he wanted, keep it short. Maybe just focus on the fact that there are 2 very low-cost providers 403b (and one 457) available. The target is teachers with variable annuities. Both the plans are somewhat hidden aren't they, especially LI's PDP. Maybe mention that expensive accounts can be transferred into a low-cost plan? I think a bar graph illustrating cost over time is necessary! 

    As Steve suggested, anything more is too difficult and complex for a short letter. 


    First thoughts:  Is your audience the 70% who do not have a 403b? Or is it the 25%-30% who have annuity-based, expensive 403b plans? Maybe you should focus on the latter? And of those, focus on those with a variable annuity, not those with a fixed annuity?

    How about starting out something like:  Your national union, the NEA, has developed a super low-cost 403b plan based on Vanguard index funds. It’s the Security Benefit NEA Direct Invest 403b. Why would they do that? They realized that there was a need for a low-cost 403b for K-12 employees. This plan is available in districts where Security Benefit is on the 403b vendor list.

    Meanwhile, your state union, the NJEA, has arranged for a super low-cost 403b and 457 plan, also based on Vanguard index funds. It’s the Lincoln Investment Group Participant Directed Platform (PDP). This plan is available in NJ districts where Lincoln Investment is on the 403b (and 457) vendor list. 

    In my experience, I get folks’ attention when I show them the large amount of money they are paying in fees, compared to the much smaller amount they would pay at low-cost plan.

    I think an example is needed, for example, comparing an AXA fund with total fees of say 2%, with a Vanguard fund with a fee of 0.04%. For a $10,000 account, that’s $200 vs $4 in fees per year. For a $100,000, that’s $2000 vs $40 in fees per year. A bar graph is very eye-catching way to illustrate the difference. Maybe use an estimate of the average 403b account balance, and calculate the fees over 5, 10 and 20 years? (The annual account maintenance fee of $35 for NEA Direct Invest for balances under $50,000, and $60 for the PDP are relatively insignificant compared to the fees based on a percentage of the fund’s balance.)

    I think you can avoid the use of terms like “expense ratio” and others that most teachers are not familiar with, by just sticking to terms like cost, fees, percent and $$$. Make it as simple as possible. Maybe a second letter describing the 2 plans in more detail would be allowed by the union? Or you could provide links to threads on this forum?

    Trying to convince teachers to invest in a 403b(7) plan that uses the stock and bond index funds, rather than contribute to a fixed annuity, is maybe a discussion best left out of this letter? It seems most teachers prefer the fixed annuity, and we'd like to change that, but that is a complex challenge.

  16. I just occurred to me that you want to do a backdoor Roth IRA (because of your high MAGI) and your tIRA would result in a pro rata tax problem? If that is the reason you want to convert your tIRA to a Roth IRA, have you considered rolling your tIRA into your 403b plan? You would want the 403b plan to be low-cost. (Vanguard does not allow rollovers into their 403b plan.)

  17. I think Ed answered your question. There is an employee contribution limit to employer based retirement 403b plan. For 2019 it's 19k if you are under 50, 25k if you are over 50. The limit applies to any combination of traditional and Roth contributions to your 403b.

    There is an income limit to contribute directly to a Roth IRA, based on your modified adjusted gross income (MAGI).

    As Ed mentioned there is no IRS limit if you want to convert a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. The conversion will add to your taxable income. It might make sense to wait on conversions until your income tax bracket is lower, say in retirement before you start social security? Or during a year between jobs? But the IRS is always willing to have you pay the tax on the conversion now.

  18. It looks like IL will get a state-run 457 plan in the near future, according to this newspaper article. You will probably learn about its details before we do. Please send us a link to any article on it you come across.

    Teachers who are part of either the Tier 1 or the Tier 2 pension plans can enroll, although Martwick acknowledged it will most appeal to teachers in the Tier 2 plan that has far less generous benefits.

    But it’s going to be a while before the new program is available. TRS spokesman Dave Urbanek said it won’t be available before June 30, 2019, the end of the current fiscal year.


    The forum discussion of this article is here:


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