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  1. Joel, Please tell us what you earned in your investments over the last 5 years. Jim
  2. Joel, I'm sorry but I am not going to respond to your questions until you respond to mine. You are an arrogant, sanctimounious, self righteous lying prick and if you were on fire in the middle of the street I would not cross it to piss on you. YOU & DAN WIN!!! YOU WILL EFFECTIVELY HAVE RUN SOMEONE ELSE OFF THIS SITE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU!!! CONGRATULATIONS. NOW YOU CAN CONTINUE TO SPEW YOUR HALF TRUTHS AND NONESENSE TO THE UNINITIATED AND ALREADY CONVERTED. WHY HAVE OPEN AND HONEST DISCOURSE WHEN IT IS SO MUCH EASIER TO SHOUT DOWN ANYONE WHO QUESTIONS YOU???? Jim
  3. Why does it go without saying? What do you base this on? Jim
  4. Joel, I will give you further information about where I am investing when you do the same. Jim
  5. Joel, "Jim has let some of us know that he participates in an AUL Variable Annuity called "One America Asset Director". On the one hand he is fast to allege that compared to a buy and hold of no-loads he did better just for the 5 years ended on 12/31/04. Hal I believe proved him wrong." Proved me wrong? About what? Joel I reported on my returns, no right or wrong involved. If Hal invested in something else that did bet then that is great for him. I sent you this information in confidence and of course being the honorable person that you are you chose to betray that confidence. THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHY I WOULD SOONER SHOOT MYSELF THAN GIVE DAN OTTER AN INTERVIEW. "We all know, however, that five years is a much too short a period of time to use..." This is the time period that I've had the VA. I was posting about my experience with my product. "Then he conveniently forgets to inform us that there were were other AUL products that did even better than the "OneAmerica Asset Director" for each of the reporting periods (one, three, five and ten years). " I didn't conveniently forget anything Joel. I was posting my experience. DO YOU UNDERSTAND??? MY EXPERIENCE!!! If some other funds in the VA did better and I had owned them I would have posted on my experience with those funds. If there were other AUL funds that did better than mine doesn't that further bolster the idea that an annuity can work inside a 403(b) or 457? I also have no idea where you are getting these numbers since they are not what appears in my qaurterly report. Hey Joel, I'm willing to share my experiences. Why won't you? Jim
  6. Joel, "you and your colleagues that recognize that 125 bp for an annuity wrapper is a drain on the growth of your money should demand asap the same asset allocation program without the annuity wrapper." Let's see, I should go and make DEMANDS of my part time employer? And then my part time empolyer will choose to hire someone else for Sept. who isn't a pain in the . I'm a non contract part time employee at a Community College that could have its' choice of instructors. "You have admitted that if it was offered absent the ME fee you would have grabbed it." When did I ever admit that? I never said anything of the sort. Where do you want me to send your tin foil hat? Jim
  7. Joel, I don't live in NY so I'm not familiar with the NYSUT. What do you base this allegation on? Isn't taking kickbacks illegal? Do you have proof of this behavior? You guys have a pretty tough State AG in NY. If this was true isn't it something you should bring to the attention of Elliot Spitzer and not just to the attention of 403(b)wise? Jim
  8. Joel, No you haven't. You "challenged" me to do the numbers myself, prove myself wrong, and report back to this Board. I'm sorry Joel, but the last time I looked you don't sign my paycheck and I am not obligated to report back to you on anything. If you believe my assertions are incorrect, (and they may be, I am just basing my post on my experience), it is up to you to disprove them. I have suggested that you go to TIAA or Vanguard or any no load fund family and create a hypothetical account model for the last 5 years and see what returns you would come up with. I'm sure that Scottyd has the software that would allow you to do this. Joel, you never ever back up anything you say with facts. You just say it is common sense and leave it at that. I went to the Weiss website and there is nothing I can find that proves your assertions. I did my part, now you do yours. Provide proof of what you believe is common sense. Their is a guy in my neighborhood who lives behind the Rite Aid. He wears a tin foil hat as protection against the CIA stealing his thoughts. To him this is "common sense". Jim
  9. Joel, I did not say I was willing to give YOU all the particulars. I said I would post the name of the company on the Board only with Dan Otter's permission and would email it privately to others. I reserve the right to pick and choose who I send private emails to. Upon reflection I will send you the name. Since I will not under any circumstances tell you the name of the Rep or the entity that I work for I figure you can't make too much trouble for anyone. The VA company can take care of themselves. "Having said that, can you see your way clear in answering the following for us?: As a governmental entity employer does your 457(b) plan offer a menu of mutual funds or is the only vehicle the variable annuity? You have an assigned rep. Does the plan offer a program without a rep being assigned?" Honest to God Joel: YOU EXHAUST ME!!! Do you even bother to read the postings of those you flame? I have posted this before and I will now go through it again: The 457 plan is administered, (I'm not sure if this is the correct terminology), by a company called Tax Deferred Services. They are a 3rd. Party Administer and a common remitter. The employer sent us all a flyer about the 457 they were sponsoring and I filled it out to get more information. A "rep" with TDS contacted me and we set up a time to meet. At that meeting he explained to me the differences between a 403(b) and a 457. This particular employer offers both but I am a part time instructor with them and I am maxing out my 403(b) in my "home" school district and cannot participate in the 403(b). I choose to contribute to the 457. He gave me a number of different investment options: a. FTJones: They offered me about 300 different mutual funds. The rep fully disclosed to me that their agreement with the school was that the total charge would be 1.35%. and that 0.35% went to FTJones and the other 1% went to him for setting up the account and being my ongoing Rep. This is 1% of what is contributed not an ongoing cost. After the 1st year the $$ already in the account would only be charged the 0.35% fee. Any "new" that I put in would be charged 1.35% in the year it is contributed. This seems like a reasonable fee, on a $1,000 per month contribution, I am paying $10 a month extra for the Rep. I know you can't understand this but I can live with that. The down side to me was that I had to make all the investment decisions myself and as I have stated previously I do not feel competent to do that. The Rep mad it very clear that legally he could not manage my account for me. b. SBG: I am familiar with SBG and have used them in my 403(b). This was a governmental 457 account that had no annual administrative charges and an annual fee of 0.85%. It also would waive any surrender charges upon separation of service. I chose not to do this because I am already using SBG elsewhere. c. : This is a variable annuity. For reasons already stated previously this is what I chose to go with. d. Fixed Annuities. He had available a variety of fixed rate annuities. Did not push them. Just told me that for some people who were really scared of the market they were an option. He also told me about Equity annuities somehow tied to the S&P 500. He felt that these were mostly smoke & mirror types of accounts and anyone considering them should either take the risk and invest in an S&P mutual fund or avoid the risk and invest in a fixed account. e. He told me they also could offer a variety of other investment options, but that price wise and internal choices of sub accounts were very similar from one product to the next. I asked him about TIAA/Cref since they are approved by the District for 403(b) and I do know some people who use them. He told me that they used to do common remitting for TIAA but that TIAA CHOSE to discontinue the relationship since if they could not be the sole provider they did not want to play. I actually checked this with the HR person at the school and Marie told me this was true. TIAA wanted all or nothing. I am sorry Joel but I am suspicious of a company that does not want to compete. Now that I have answered your questions about MY investment how about answering mine about yours? What are you ashamed of? I hope this has answered your questions. It probably hasn't and I'm sure you will find some way to twist this post around so that it appears the rep was trying to cheat or decieve me. I'm sure in your mind the Rep is getting rich from the $10 a month that FTJones would be paying him. Jim
  10. Joel, I went to the Milberg, Weiss website http://www.milbergweiss.com/ and find nothing there about Prudential or any studies regarding fee disclosure. Perhaps you can provide us with the link. Jim
  11. Dan, I am sorry but I am not going to expose someone I have had a 20 year relationship with to people like Joel. I have no need for them to be labeled sharks or accused of doing things that members on this board disagree with. I don't know Ellie Lowder and I am sure that as a professional spokesperson she may be used to being criticized in public. My financial rep isn't and I would not want him to be. Quite frankly I would not put it past Joel to devise some method of harrassment. ie complaints to the CA Dept. of Ins., NASD, school districts, etc. if he knew the name of the person or companies I do business with. I am sure Joel would take great glee in attempting to put someone he considers a shark out of business. Jim
  12. "Haven't seen Joel, or anybody else for that matter, claim to be an expert." There is an expression that my father used to use, "Your actions speak so loud I can't hear what you are saying." Joel absolutely puts himself as an expert if not by label than cedrtainly by deed. "Though I disagree with the position you have taken (i.e. the linkage of good returns with the fees paid into a plan) I appreciate hearing your views on these matters. " That is not my position. My position is that the conventional wisdom is not always either conventional or wise. The CW on this Board is that axiomatically all low load funds are good and all investments that charge fees are bad. And that all salesman that make a living from commissions are bad. I am just suggesting that this is not always the case. Infact I probably agree more with Joel than disagree with him. In a perfect world we would all be educated about investments and be able to invest well and wisely in funds like TIAA or Vanguard. What irritates me is Joel's self righteous, pedantic attitude that everything he says is 100% gospel and then his refusal to back up his pronouncements with facts. Jim
  13. Joel, As usual you misconsture my comments. Scottyd wrote that I didn't look very hard to find RIAs. I agreed with him and went looking. I was hoping to be able to find websites, like Scottyd's, where the fees are disclosed so that I could post them to this Board for purposes of comparison. I was unable to, so short of taking a day off of work and making 50-100 toll calls there is no way for me to get an idea of what the average RIA charges. Yes I'm sure that if I hired an RIA he would disclose all the fees, but for the purposes of this discussion that is not helpful. "Is is a studied fact that owners of these annuity contracts both inside and outside pre-tax accounts do not know that they are paying an ME fee....even after decades of participantion...this is a national scandal." What study is this fact published in? Can you provide any proof to back up this claim? It's a natiopnal scandal? No Joel, US soldiers torturing Iraqui prisoners is a national scandal. Salesman not disclosing fees they are probably supposed to is irresponsible and unethical, not a national scandal. Jim
  14. Joel, Yes he did. As I previously stated he gave me 4 different options. He told me that if I chose to take the VA I should only do it to partipate in the professionally managed sub account and that there was a fee for doing this of 1.25%. He told me that this fee would act as a death benefit to guarantee the account value going to my wife if I should die during a downswing in the market but that I was not investing in this product for the death benefit. This was the cost of participating in this VA and that I should ONLY do it if I wanted to take advantage of the sub account that was professionally managed. If I was going to "manage" the accounts myself I would be better off in "straight" mutual funds and save myself that cost. He did point out to me that he saw many teachers who had opened up mutual fund accounts 5, 6, 7, or 10 years ago and are still contributing to the same funds that they started with. Sometimes this is good & sometimes this is bad. I freely admit that I do not have the time to learn or the expertise to manage my accounts myself and know where and how I should be diversified. Perhaps if I knew someone like Scottyd at the time I would have taken advantage of his services. But seeing as how the first time I ever heard of an RIA was when I joined this Board it is a moot point. Joel, I will readily admit that if I could do it myself I would spend less and therefore logic dictates I would have an overall higher return. OTOH, if I was as smart as the people who did it for a living I would be a fund manager making $1,000,000 a year and not a school teacher making $80,000 a year. All things being equal a no load or low load or low expense investment should outperform an investment with fees attached. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world and all things are rarely equal. Jim Jim
  15. Joel, It is a governmental 457. This company offers the same product as a 403(b) VA also. Jim
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