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Math8

Advice Needed..nys Ing Vs Fidelity Vs Vanguard

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I am getting into a 403b late in life..Teaching in public school only 5 years and have investment in TIAA-Cref from private school. Anyhow Union recommends ING which has list of mutual funds can use. Have previous non- retirement investments with Fidelity and Vanguard and like both. Are INGs mutual funds no-load, no-fee or does it vary? Read past posts re ING and neg comments...Comments and advice please ...this groups seems VERY knowledgeable....

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Guest Sierra

I am getting into a 403b late in life..Teaching in public school only 5 years and have investment in TIAA-Cref from private school. Anyhow Union recommends ING which has list of mutual funds can use. Have previous non- retirement investments with Fidelity and Vanguard and like both. Are INGs mutual funds no-load, no-fee or does it vary? Read past posts re ING and neg comments...Comments and advice please ...this groups seems VERY knowledgeable....

 

 

Math8: Have you read the following:? http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2006/jun/jun13b_06.html. What is YOUR opinion about investing in YOUR union's endorsed 403b products?

 

Peace and hope,

Joel L. Frank

Edited by Sierra

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I don't know specifically which ING plan your union has recommended; however, here are highlights from ING Advantage Century (http://www.ing-usa.com/us/stellent2/groups/dc/documents/regulatorydocument/001158.pdf):

 

- 7% surrender fee.

- $30 annual maintenance fee.

- 1.25% Mortality and expense charge.

- .15% Administrative expense charge.

 

Now, right there you are already in the hole a whole bunch.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

You also pay ongoing fund expenses. These will vary, but here are some examples:

 

One of the Alger funds will cost you .85%.

ING Alliance costs you 1.03%.

ING Marsico Growth costs you 1.03%.

 

So, add these fund fees to the previous fees you are paying well over 2%.

 

An investor might want to ask himself if the "advice" received for the high privilege of acquiring these funds justifies the costs. A union that recommends ING might want to consider alternatives.

 

(If you have access to Fidelity, its Spartan Funds charge .10%. If you have access to Vanguard, its funds charge around .20%)

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So, add these fund fees to the previous fees you are paying well over 2%.

 

(If you have access to Fidelity, its Spartan Funds charge .10%. If you have access to Vanguard, its funds charge around .20%)

 

 

Both Fidelity and Vanguard are choices we have..I read about Spitpzer and NYSUT...Unbelievable....

Vanguard charges $15 per year per fund also for their 403b7. Will ask Fidelity if they have same fees.....

Looks like ING is OUT.................

 

Thanks

 

 

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Just an added thought: you might use the Tiaa/Cref for your REIT investment, if that is part of your overall allocation, Vanguard for indexed investing (small/mid-caps) and bonds, and Fidelity for your favorite sector funds. And Vanguard has a few good sector funds too...Best of fortunes, Dan

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I don't know specifically which ING plan your union has recommended; however, here are highlights from ING Advantage Century (http://www.ing-usa.com/us/stellent2/groups/dc/documents/regulatorydocument/001158.pdf):

 

- 7% surrender fee.

- $30 annual maintenance fee.

- 1.25% Mortality and expense charge.

- .15% Administrative expense charge.

 

Now, right there you are already in the hole a whole bunch.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

You also pay ongoing fund expenses. These will vary, but here are some examples:

 

One of the Alger funds will cost you .85%.

ING Alliance costs you 1.03%.

ING Marsico Growth costs you 1.03%.

 

So, add these fund fees to the previous fees you are paying well over 2%.

 

An investor might want to ask himself if the "advice" received for the high privilege of acquiring these funds justifies the costs. A union that recommends ING might want to consider alternatives.

 

(If you have access to Fidelity, its Spartan Funds charge .10%. If you have access to Vanguard, its funds charge around .20%)

 

 

BTW, Fidelity charges a $10/year low balance fee on index funds with balances under $10K. Still this appears better than ING or Vanguard if the four options from Fidelity meet your diversification needs. On a $9,000 fund balance (w/10 bp expense ratio) you would pay Fidelity a total of $19/year; $9 for the expense fee and $10 for the low balance fee. A Vanguard fund at 18 bp expense ratio fund would be $31.20/year; $16.2 for the expense fee and $15 per fund fee.

 

Best wishes,

 

Readingteacherspouse

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Some people on here giving "advice" just dont have a clue.........

 

 

My advice: find a true professional instead of having to take the advise from educatiors or educators spouses who have nothing better to do than to rattle off useless info. Seek the advice from a financial advsor, not a internet financial adviso r who thinks they can give advice because theyve heard about a 403b.

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Some people on here giving "advice" just dont have a clue.........

 

 

My advice: find a true professional instead of having to take the advise from educatiors or educators spouses who have nothing better to do than to rattle off useless info. Seek the advice from a financial advsor, not a internet financial adviso r who thinks they can give advice because theyve heard about a 403b.

 

 

My, my, my. Perhaps you could go back to my July 15 post and explain where I was wrong.

 

1) Were any of my facts wrong?

 

2) Do you think it was wrong to even ask the question of whether an advisor is worth the cost if the tradeoff is high fees?

 

3) "Useless information?" Wow, do you think that info about fees is "useless?" For whom? The agent? I would argue that it is rather important for clients.

 

Just show me where I gave poor advice in that post.

 

The one thing you got right was the part about seeking advice from a financial advisor. There sure is nothing wrong with that as long as it is a fee-based advisor who has nothing to gain by pawning off high cost, inappropriate products to clients.

 

 

 

 

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do you have a series 6, 63, 7 or a 24? heck even an insurance license? if not, then stick to the classroom. You dont see me trying to arm chair classroom etiquette? why? because im not trained in education. I think people like you arm chairing my business is doing a great disservice to educators....have you done wrong? adsolutely....do you go to the doctor and he just prescribe you the latest mediceine that was pawned to him by the rep? there has to be alot of prepwork such as tax analysis, retirement objectives, a total financial analysis. My advice once again: stick to what you do best and leave the financial matters to the professionals.

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do you have a series 6, 63, 7 or a 24? heck even an insurance license? if not, then stick to the classroom. You dont see me trying to arm chair classroom etiquette? why? because im not trained in education. I think people like you arm chairing my business is doing a great disservice to educators....have you done wrong? adsolutely....do you go to the doctor and he just prescribe you the latest mediceine that was pawned to him by the rep? there has to be alot of prepwork such as tax analysis, retirement objectives, a total financial analysis. My advice once again: stick to what you do best and leave the financial matters to the professionals.

 

 

Dreyes111-

 

It is widely reported in literature that premium fees paid for financial advice do not result in premium returns. Perhaps you can explain why suitable investments with high fees are sold rather than the best product for the customer. There are too many financial advisors working on a compensation basis with built-in conflicts of interest. There are too many financial advisors recommending legally acceptable suitable investment vehicles instead of the best financial vehicle for the customer. Perhaps you can show us a citation for a peer-reviewed paper which shows that investment license holders or life insurance agents provide demonstrably better advice than individuals without such industry credentials. By the way, if your children had trouble at school and you complained would you be satisfied with a response such as "stick to the office--Do you have a teaching certificate or an educational administration license?"

 

There are too many financial advisors that operate in a manner inconsistent with the best interest of the customer. The best defense against such individuals is an open forum such as this one.

 

Sweeping statements to leave financial matters to the professionals need to be clarified and not spouted as propaganda.

 

Be advised, we're not going to stick to the classroom! We're going to be better informed consumers.

 

Thank you,

 

Readingteacherspouse

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do you have a series 6, 63, 7 or a 24? heck even an insurance license? if not, then stick to the classroom. You dont see me trying to arm chair classroom etiquette? why? because im not trained in education. I think people like you arm chairing my business is doing a great disservice to educators....have you done wrong? adsolutely....do you go to the doctor and he just prescribe you the latest mediceine that was pawned to him by the rep? there has to be alot of prepwork such as tax analysis, retirement objectives, a total financial analysis. My advice once again: stick to what you do best and leave the financial matters to the professionals.

 

 

Gosh, I feel somewhat ... inadequate ... without those impressive licenses. OK, I guess that I will just meekly retreat to my classroom and not worry about my colleagues who have been given such poor investment advice by those upstanding sales advisors. Yep, I will just keep those thoughts to myself and let you and your colleagues teach us all that we have to know about investing. Gee, thanks so much for relieving me of that burden.

 

Right.

 

- Armchairing your business? I have no intention of competing with you for clients. I'm merely interested in providing information that sales advisors may not provide to their clients. You guys no longer have a monopoly on information.

 

- Your analogy with the doctor is ridiculous. There is a world of difference between treating illness and disease and investing. I certainly could not perform surgery, but I am quite capable, thank you, of managing my own portfolio. Really, it's not that difficult.

 

- This does not mean that financial advisors are not useful. I may well consult one myself, but it will be a fee-only advisor who has nothing at all to gain by placing me into expensive and inappropriate investments. My friendly neighborhood insurance rep who hangs around the teacher lounges, however, has a strong financial incentive to pawn off such investments.

 

- Stick to what I do best and leave financial matters to the professionals? If you mean the sales advisors that abound, that's like letting the fox guard the henhouse.

 

So I'll tell you what, dear sir. I choose to not follow your advice. I will continue to stick to what I do best and teach, but, oddly enough, I find that I am quite capable to do something else besides that. You may not like what I post, so feel free to respond any time.

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Calling on HR1982, Frenchteacher and 403bagent!

dreyes has joined the site and is your friend! Did you read his wise post? He or she is trying to do what you folks have been doing for years. dreyes may need some help or suggestions now that he has entered the real world of open dialogue. Wow, the four of you can really tell us financial amateurs and educators how to invest. Perhaps now we educators can finally get it right.

Steve

 

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Honestly, I dont like mutual funds. None of them personally. But for growth and long term objectives like people ages 25-49 i usually look at the vanguard family. But since i specialize in working with educators, I see that many here frown upon commission based products and fixed products. I guarantee that I could beat any mutual fund in existance with my innovative money management system and a simple fixed annuity. Educators on a national average are putting away 50-200 per pay period in a mutual fund. My clients average 800-1000 a month and thats for just teachers making about 50k a year. Im not going to go into how because im not gonna show my hand as thats how I get paid. Many times i hear the excuse, "i dont like fixed products because they earn very little" After its said and done, you will not earn much more with mutual funds. I didnt mean to come across negatively, but there are so many factors to consider. Many many people are not suitable for mutual funds. I have approximately 2500 clients. About 200 have mutual funds while the rest have fixed annuities. Wanna know how many dropped off because poor returns or because of high fees (which is not true)? NONE. This site is doing a great disservice to educators because it doesnt get the info correct in regards to retirement. Sure i know there are alot of bad insurance agents prowling school campuses but then again im glad they are around because I can always find business. My goal is to inform teachers in all aspects of their financial lives. We do complete tax analysis for spouses as well, in-depth retirement analysis, thorough debt analysis, and paycheck analysis including spouses too, go over expenditures and complete financial forecasts...as well as go over STRS benefits in full detail, down to percentages of JSBO. Let me guess, some advisor just had you sign papers? Can i see you alls financial plan documents? Usual financial advisors charge 1500 put together a complete financial plan....wanna know how much i charge for one? not one penny. I do all this for my clients free.

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Good grief. I hardly know where to begin.

 

1) "I guarantee that I could beat any mutual fund in existance with my innovative money management system and a simple fixed annuity."

 

I'd like to know what the guarantee is. The claim is so ridiculous it does not justify any response.

 

2) "After its said and done, you will not earn much more with mutual funds."

 

Are you saying that fixed rate annuities will beat stock funds in the long run? You are in a minority of one if you are saying that there is no correlation between risk and return.

 

3) "This site is doing a great disservice to educators because it doesnt get the info correct in regards to retirement."

 

Just show me where I have been factually incorrect.

 

4) "wanna know how much i charge for one? not one penny. I do all this for my clients free."

 

Again, this just defies common sense. Perhaps you do not charge a separate fee for a financial plan per se, but your clients are paying in other ways ... such as commissions you charge on the products you sell.

 

5) "Educators on a national average are putting away 50-200 per pay period in a mutual fund. My clients average 800-1000 a month."

 

This is where I will give you a good deal of credit. One of the few things investors can control (at least to some extent) is the amount of money they invest each month. If you can encourage them to save more than they otherwise would, good for you. You are doing them a fine service.

 

But investing in fixed annuities? No thanks. Done that.

 

6) "Wanna know how many dropped off because poor returns or because of high fees (which is not true)?"

 

Perhaps you would like to tell us what your commission is on that $1000 monthly investment in a fixed annuity. We would then have a better idea if it is high or not.

 

 

 

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Guest TR1982

Calling on HR1982, Frenchteacher and 403bagent!

dreyes has joined the site and is your friend! Did you read his wise post? He or she is trying to do what you folks have been doing for years. dreyes may need some help or suggestions now that he has entered the real world of open dialogue. Wow, the four of you can really tell us financial amateurs and educators how to invest. Perhaps now we educators can finally get it right.

Steve

 

 

Nah, you know everything. This site is for investing experts, like you. That fella is wasting his time.

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