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Back To Basics...a Clarifier & Challenge

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As Joel says

 

 

" am a die hard advocate in making sure that investors understand the benefits of low expenses. PERIOD!!!"

 

One of the things he and Dan are missing is that this board is becoming like the Diehards; one either hews to the party line or one is run out of Dodge

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suo:

 

If common sense is the "party line". I am guilty.

 

Where have I or Dan Otter or anybody else run anybody out of Dodge? You know that Dan has invited Jim and the French Teacher to be interviewed in an above and fair minded way yet they shy away. How come? I have published my position on the NYSUT/ING arrangement. Why is the French Teacher the only one to challenge me. There has to be more than one teacher out there that disagrees with my position...where are they? Can it be that they are afraid of being run of Dodge? All 200,000 of them? We welcome there inclusion into the ongoing dialogue on a subject that is obviously very important to all of us.

 

Jim's returns were based on a pre-arranged asset allocation formula which includes rebalancing every 30 days. He compares his returns to buy and hold results and reaches the conclusion that he did much better even with the wasteful 125 basis points factored in. I have attempted repeatedly to show him that he is not comparing like things and gave examples of what I was referring to. To this day he still believes he is right and I am wrong. Would you be able to help me out by using your communicative skills to show Jim the errors of his ways?

 

Peace and Hope,

Joel

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suo:

Where have I or Dan Otter or anybody else run anybody out of Dodge?

 

It wasn't very long ago, Joel, that a CFP came on here, disclosed who he was, made no attempt to hide what he did for a living, and proceeded to explain why he thought sometimes annuities were a good idea. Your vicious harangue against him ended with a Bob Grant quote exhorting him to, in your words, "YOU FRAUD, YOU PHONY, GET OFF MY LINE".

 

That's one example.

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If he was so self confident of his position he could have continued to fight like you instead of cut and run. Insofar as you have so much self confidence you may want to donate some of your surplus to him and encourage him to come back to Dodge.

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If he was so self confident of his position he could have continued to fight like you instead of cut and run. Insofar as you have so much self confidence you may want to donate some of your surplus to him and encourage him to come back to Dodge.

 

I take this as an acknowledgment that you have, in fact, run people out of town for believing something different than you.

 

People respond to such aggressive behavior in different ways. I think this guy probably thought he was coming to a site where discussion was welcomed, and when your belligerence showed him otherwise, he simply chose to stop participating. Clearly his agenda does not include converting those who won't entertain an opposing viewpoint.

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Clearly his agenda does not include converting those who won't entertain an opposing viewpoint.

==============================================

When your NYSUT endorses for NO FEE a no-load 403(b) program then you can talk about "entertaining opposing viewpoints". Your ethical Union wouldn't dare jeopardize its sweet financial arrangement (it currently collects in excess of 1.5 million dollars for its endorsement of ING/Opportunity Plus) that such an endorsement would entail. Please stop the BS!! and get off my line!

 

 

 

 

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Clearly his agenda does not include converting those who won't entertain an opposing viewpoint.

==============================================

When your NYSUT endorses for NO FEE a no-load 403(b) program then you can talk about "entertaining opposing viewpoints". Your ethical Union wouldn't dare jeopardize its sweet financial arrangement (it currently collects in excess of 1.5 million dollars for its endorsement of ING/Opportunity Plus) that such an endorsement would entail. Please stop the BS!! and get off my line!

 

"Your line"? What an egomaniac. I'll stay far, far away from www.joelfrank.com, but I'll continue to point out your lies, mistakes, distortions and exaggerations here as they occur.

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I have attempted repeatedly to show him that he is not comparing like things and gave examples of what I was referring to. To this day he still believes he is right and I am wrong. Would you be able to help me out by using your communicative skills to show Jim the errors of his ways?

 

Peace and Hope,

Joel

Joel,

 

No you haven't. You "challenged" me to do the numbers myself, prove myself wrong, and report back to this Board. I'm sorry Joel, but the last time I looked you don't sign my paycheck and I am not obligated to report back to you on anything. If you believe my assertions are incorrect, (and they may be, I am just basing my post on my experience), it is up to you to disprove them. I have suggested that you go to TIAA or Vanguard or any no load fund family and create a hypothetical account model for the last 5 years and see what returns you would come up with. I'm sure that Scottyd has the software that would allow you to do this.

 

Joel, you never ever back up anything you say with facts. You just say it is common sense and leave it at that. I went to the Weiss website and there is nothing I can find that proves your assertions. I did my part, now you do yours. Provide proof of what you believe is common sense.

 

Their is a guy in my neighborhood who lives behind the Rite Aid. He wears a tin foil hat as protection against the CIA stealing his thoughts. To him this is "common sense".

 

Jim

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Clearly his agenda does not include converting those who won't entertain an opposing viewpoint.

==============================================

When your NYSUT endorses for NO FEE a no-load 403(b) program then you can talk about "entertaining opposing viewpoints". Your ethical Union wouldn't dare jeopardize its sweet financial arrangement (it currently collects in excess of 1.5 million dollars for its endorsement of ING/Opportunity Plus) that such an endorsement would entail. Please stop the BS!! and get off my line!

Joel,

 

I don't live in NY so I'm not familiar with the NYSUT. What do you base this allegation on? Isn't taking kickbacks illegal? Do you have proof of this behavior? You guys have a pretty tough State AG in NY. If this was true isn't it something you should bring to the attention of Elliot Spitzer and not just to the attention of 403(b)wise?

 

Jim

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When your NYSUT endorses for NO FEE a no-load 403(b) program then you can talk about "entertaining opposing viewpoints". Your ethical Union wouldn't dare jeopardize its sweet financial arrangement (it currently collects in excess of 1.5 million dollars for its endorsement of ING/Opportunity Plus) that such an endorsement would entail. Please stop the BS!! and get off my line!

____________________________________________________

 

Jim: This endorsement arrangement is legal. It would be illegal if the public employers/school districts collected the fee in return for their endorsement. So don't you agree with me that it is highly unethical for the union to stand in the shoes of the employer and collect the fee? Do you agree with me that this fee is collected on the backs of the rank-in-file teacher that participates in the Opportunity Plus variable annuity?

 

Joel

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Clearly his agenda does not include converting those who won't entertain an opposing viewpoint.

==============================================

When your NYSUT endorses for NO FEE a no-load 403(b) program then you can talk about "entertaining opposing viewpoints".  Your ethical Union wouldn't dare jeopardize its sweet financial arrangement (it currently collects in excess of 1.5 million dollars for its endorsement of ING/Opportunity Plus) that such an endorsement would entail.  Please stop the BS!! and get off my line!

Joel,

 

I don't live in NY so I'm not familiar with the NYSUT. What do you base this allegation on? Isn't taking kickbacks illegal? Do you have proof of this behavior? You guys have a pretty tough State AG in NY. If this was true isn't it something you should bring to the attention of Elliot Spitzer and not just to the attention of 403(b)wise?

 

Jim

 

Jim, Joel won't go to Eliot Spitzer or anyone else with these groundless claims. He knows for a fact that his claims of wrongdoing are entirely without merit. He also knows that if the rank and file members of the union WERE getting screwed, we'd be the first ones complaining loudly about it. But he prefers to think of NYSUT's half-million members as sheep being led to the slaughter, and he enjoys taking on the role of the crusader on their behalf. Of course, if any of these claims HAD merit, NYSUT and its membership would be behind Joel 100%. He knows that, too.

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FrenchTeacher:

 

Stop trying to influence Jim with a response that you would like him to ditto.

 

Joel said: Jim: This endorsement arrangement is legal. It would be illegal if the public employers/school districts collected the fee in return for their endorsement.

 

So don't you agree with me that it is highly unethical for the union to stand in the shoes of the employer and collect the fee? Do you agree with me that this fee is collected on the backs of the rank-in-file teacher that participates in the Opportunity Plus variable annuity? This endorsement fee is paid to the Union from the fees paid by Opportunity Plus Participants. If there was a transparent endorsement this 1.5 million dollars would be credited to the accounts of the Opportunity Plus participants. Jim, what is your take on such an arrangement?

 

Joel

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FrenchTeacher:

 

Stop trying to influence Jim with a response that you would like him to ditto.

 

Joel said: Jim: This endorsement arrangement is legal. It would be illegal if the public employers/school districts collected the fee in return for their endorsement.

 

So don't you agree with me that it is highly unethical for the union to stand in the shoes of the employer and collect the fee? Do you agree with me that this fee is collected on the backs of the rank-in-file teacher that participates in the Opportunity Plus variable annuity? This endorsement fee is paid to the Union from the fees paid by Opportunity Plus Participants. If there was a transparent endorsement this 1.5 million dollars would be credited to the accounts of the Opportunity Plus participants. Jim, what is your take on such an arrangement?

 

Joel

 

1. It's "rank AND file," not "rank-in-file."

 

2. How is this NOT a transparent endorsement? I get mail from Member Benefits every month or so reminding me of it. The prospectus is very clear about how much money ING pays NYSUT Benefit Trust.

 

You'd love for this to be some sort of big secret...but it isn't! Everyone knows, and yet there is no outrage. Why? Because there isn't a single NYSUT local that I'm aware of that mandates ING, and doesn't provide low-cost, no-load options! Anyone who wants a non-ING 403(b) plan, has one.

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Joel said:

Where have I or Dan Otter or anybody else run anybody out of Dodge?

 

 

Look back a year or two. Look at the difference in regular posters. Look at the variety of topics and answers.

 

Congratulations on essentially shutting down a needed, helpful board.

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Congratulations on essentially shutting down a needed, helpful board.

 

That's too pessimistic. This board hasn't been shut down. Nor do I think it will. If you've ever been involved in on-line groups for anytime, you'd know that some of the personal snipping that has occured lately always happens sooner or later.

 

If you are concerned about the health of this board start a new topic and make some informative posts. That's all it takes to get things back on track.

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