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Cost Comparison

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I would like to see a cost comparison for costs for 403b plans by the following: Vanguard, Fidelity Direct, Creff, Valic, and Lincoln Financial. This info would open the eyes of all sheep who are being fleeced.

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I would like to see a cost comparison for costs for 403b plans by the following: Vanguard, Fidelity Direct, Creff, Valic, and Lincoln Financial. This info would open the eyes of all sheep who are being fleeced.

 

I thought comparison on plan costs by employer including administrative expeses are available on the internet. Comparing fees of generic investment products available in a fund family is meaningless because

 

(1) fund companies have different classes of the same product, e.g.,retail, institutional, retirement, which have different fee structures,

(2) each plan has different cost structures depending on the type of plan and the regulatory environment.

ERISA plans have higher costs because of greater government reporting and compliance requirements than non ERISA plans.

(3) administrative costs are determined to a large extent by the number of participants and size of assets as well as the services provided. Smaller plans will have higher per capita costs because the low cost providers are not interested in such plans due to low volume and the fixed costs from plan administration and the 403b regs must be allocated among fewer participants.

 

Also some low cost providers such as TIAA-CREF have imposed a moratorium on new 403b plans and others such as VG no longer options under 403b plans.

 

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Mike

 

This article is pure crap. It does not deserve much comment beyond that.

 

 

Tony,

I have a slight different take on this article. The author is threatened by the near universal acceptance of index funds and the laments loss of an entire generation, us boomers, to the conclusion that paying higher fees increases risk and is a waste of money. Nobody can predict the future. Yet, he tries with the same old tired tirade and sales pitch that we all heard a million times before. Those high fee managed fund freaks are getting down right desparate.

Steve

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Mike

 

This article is pure crap. It does not deserve much comment beyond that.

 

 

Tony:

 

How about providing some anlaysis as to why you disagree. Most of your posts seem to be articles written by others without ever giving your own analysis. If the stats are wrong in this article show us why.

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Mike

 

This article is pure crap. It does not deserve much comment beyond that.

 

 

Tony:

 

How about providing some anlaysis as to why you disagree. Most of your posts seem to be articles written by others without ever giving your own analysis. If the stats are wrong in this article show us why.

 

 

Intruder,

Why don't you tell us why you think the article is accurate? Ill give you a hint. The author is accurate, but its based on past data. If he told me this ten years ago and he guaranteed that it would rise as he accurately presents in this article, I would have bet the farm on any of the high priced managed funds he loves. But alas, past is past. Nobody can predict the future let alone guarantee unless you are a Madoff type.

But you already know this.

 

Tony is right again. The article is crap because its based on past data period with a sales pitch for getting your hard earned money with high fees.

 

Steve

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Mike

 

This article is pure crap. It does not deserve much comment beyond that.

 

 

Tony:

 

How about providing some anlaysis as to why you disagree. Most of your posts seem to be articles written by others without ever giving your own analysis. If the stats are wrong in this article show us why.

 

 

Intruder,

Why don't you tell us why you think the article is accurate? Ill give you a hint. The author is accurate, but its based on past data. If he told me this ten years ago and he guaranteed that it would rise as he accurately presents in this article, I would have bet the farm on any of the high priced managed funds he loves. But alas, past is past. Nobody can predict the future let alone guarantee unless you are a Madoff type.

But you already know this.

 

Tony is right again. The article is crap because its based on past data period with a sales pitch for getting your hard earned money with high fees.

 

Steve

 

 

Isnt all invement analysis based on past data? The S & P 500 and MPT are investment standards because of the consistency of prior performance.

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Intruder

 

I am not as analytical as you are. You are very good at details but I sometimes wonder if you have the ability to see the bigger picture. To me the article just sounded like a sales ploy not an article meant to give information an investor could use. Sounds to me that the consumer is getting pretty sick and tired of Wall street and the games brokers play and are starting to learn about low cost steady as you go alternatives to advisors. This must have the brokers worried that their little pyramid scheme might collapse under the weight of the truth.

 

My concern about the article is that it is basically planting the seeds of doubt about pursuing a proven method of investment in low cost vehicles. Its says yes there is a lot to like about low cost investing but ###### you may miss out by not using our expertise. Using the term Bogalized was in my opinion a subtle slam on this great honest man who obviously is hated among the disingenuous on Wall street. Doesn't the status quo always hate the truth?

 

I guess you can say some of us lack expertise so we should go to the experts and watch them kill our compounding and growth and they can actually make us feel good about it so its a good move. Capitalists

love the uneducated.

 

Also I felt the article fueled speculation that you might really miss out big time if you go the boring index route. That was an obvious sales pitch to buy and sell.

 

If I remember correctly active portfolios performed worse than passive investments during this downturn. I had plenty of friends /co-workers tell me their advisors had them in 100% aggressive investments. You call that advising? Also since no one can predict the market, or a particular five star fund's long term track record how can this below remark even be relevant? Why pay for a crystal ball that doesn't work? I've been burned by buying some ###### funds that suddenly fizzled while the index fund, a lowly but consistent three star fund beat the pants off of the fund long term.

 

"Bottom line: do not simply assume that fund expense ratio overrules everything else in choosing mutual funds, especially when your hard-earned money is on the line. Don’t be “penny-wise, pound foolish.”

 

 

I say don't buy into this nonsense no matter what research they roll out as proof. Its usually biased.

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Mike

 

This article is pure crap. It does not deserve much comment beyond that.

 

 

Tony:

 

How about providing some anlaysis as to why you disagree. Most of your posts seem to be articles written by others without ever giving your own analysis. If the stats are wrong in this article show us why.

 

 

Intruder,

Why don't you tell us why you think the article is accurate? Ill give you a hint. The author is accurate, but its based on past data. If he told me this ten years ago and he guaranteed that it would rise as he accurately presents in this article, I would have bet the farm on any of the high priced managed funds he loves. But alas, past is past. Nobody can predict the future let alone guarantee unless you are a Madoff type.

But you already know this.

 

Tony is right again. The article is crap because its based on past data period with a sales pitch for getting your hard earned money with high fees.

 

Steve

 

 

Isnt all invement analysis based on past data? The S & P 500 and MPT are investment standards because of the consistency of prior performance.

 

Yes, past data show a little about about risk, NEVER a predictor about performance. I did not say this, William Bernstein, 4 Pillars of Investing" p. 32, Chapter 1, Pillar #1, theory of investing. "The real value of historical record is a guage of risk, not return."

 

Past performance are used by the sales force to hood wink the investor into thinking many things:

1. that Indexing is a poor investment. (The sole reason why the article that Tony posted was written)

2. sell you their h o t test investment, heck just look at this wonderful past data! And the performance will pay for the costs!

3. making the poor sop believe that their gimmick can BEAT the market indexes because one does not want to SETTLE for the boring market averages.

and on and on.

As Tony said so eloquently "All CRAP!"

After getting an earful, the poor sop has no chance in getting out of there. They are hooked.

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Steve,

 

 

You my friend are the eloquent one. I just sound like a broken record.

 

I'm not against capitalism either. I'm just tired of all the abuse of capitalism.

 

 

 

Tony

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Steve,

 

 

You my friend are the eloquent one. I just sound like a broken record.

 

I'm not against capitalism either. I'm just tired of all the abuse of capitalism.

 

 

 

Tony

 

 

Capitalism is great, its the people who cannot get "enough" that only want to take more and not give back in terms of great products that help people live better. The financiers are giving capitalism a bad name. Bill Gates or a Howard Hughs are a real captialists. I quit watching CNBC because of the lunacy defending greed! Latest Fortune magazine told their readers that you deserve and need not apologize for those multimillion dollar bonuses!

 

Index funds avoid all of the above and more. Good capitalists, JB, invented index funds and yet most of the financiers hate indexing. No surprise.

 

Back in the 80s, Japan had a new version of Capitalism that went beyond just making a profit. There version of the corporate culture is that looked out for the workers in shared decisions and responsiblities with more teamwork. The Saturn car maker here was an attempt to emulate that style. Now I hear that the Saturn plant is closing.

 

I feel for the little mom and pop businesses who pay the majority of taxes and pay our salaries as public workers. My respect goes for thos folks who take incredible risks with their own money. Our theater system was installed by a couple of young guys who started their computer consulting business on borrowed money, from equity on their house. Talk about risk taking.

 

2 cents,

Steve

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I feel for the little mom and pop businesses who pay the majority of taxes and pay our salaries as public workers. My respect goes for thos folks who take incredible risks with their own money. Our theater system was installed by a couple of young guys who started their computer consulting business on borrowed money, from equity on their house. Talk about risk taking.

 

2 cents,

Steve

 

Last I heard, those mom and pop shops weren't a part of the 2% paying for "most" of public workers' salaries.

 

Where do you think those young guys borrowed their money from? Could it be those evildoer financiers aka banks? Oh yes, and if their business went under, and they defaulted on their mortage, I assume it was the lenders taking advantage of those two young guys right? We would be told that they were sold a mortgage that they could not afford.

 

 

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