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Anne

My 403(b) Vendor List

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Hello,

 

Could I ask for some guidance? These are the vendors on my school's 403(b) list:

 

Horan Securities

American Fidelity

Mass Mutual

AXA Equitable

Great West Life and Annuity

Oppenhiemer

TransAmerica

Variable Annuity Life Insurance Co

 

I'm confused by Great West. Their website - gwrs.com, and the Educator$Money.gwrs - says they have low fees, yet, I haven't read any great positives about the company in my searches at 403(b)wise. And when I emailed them with questions, I got an email back from Horan Securities. Great West had contacted Horan and forwarded my questions to them. Horan emailed that they represent Great West for my school district. Great West's website said no load, but Horan had previously told me they sold loaded funds.

 

With this list, am I better off maxing out a Roth, plus doing after tax investment (with target age retirement funds or stock index funds, or something else), than going with vendors on my list?

 

At my district, if 5 people want a new vendor, the new vendor will be added to the list. I believe you'll tell me to get 5 people to request Fidelity or Vanguard or TIAA-CREF! I've been reading many of your posts!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Anne

 

 

 

 

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Hi

 

Have you considered doing a Roth instead of a 403B? If you will be saving up to $5,000 a year I would highly

recommend that option becuase you can then chose one of the better companies.

 

 

Yes, I would save any other money in a taxable account. There are tax managed and index funds which would keep distributions low. Do invest in bonds using the Roth however.

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Hi Anne,

 

If you haven't already I encourage you to check out these vendors at 403bcompare. This is a website operated by the state of California where vendors offering 403(b) product in the state must register and disclose their fee information. Every vendor on your list except Horan Securities and Variable Annuity Life Insurance Co. is in the data base. Keep in mind the products and services offered in California may be different than the ones offered in your state (which state are you in?). Here's how it works:

  1. Go to: www.403bcompare.com
  2. Click "find a vendor" on right hand side of home page (under Shortcuts) — You'll see a page that lets you alphabetically browse by vendor
  3. Choose a vendor, for example from your list, choose A and "American Fidelity Assurance Company" — the first page give you general company information
  4. Choose the "Product List" tab at top — you'll see that in California they offer three products: 2 fixed annuities and something called the "AFAdvantage Variable Annuity"
  5. Select "AFAdvantage Variable Annuity" — you'll see product information
  6. Click the "Fees and Charges" tab at top — you'll see that in California this product charges: $15 annually, 0.15% administration fee, 1.25% mortality and expense fee. You'll also see there is a surrender charge lasting 8 years, and there is a distribution charge of 0.10% (not sure exactly what this means, a charge on all distributions?). Keep in mind these charges do not include the subaccount fee.
  7. Select the "Subaccount" tab at top right
  8. You'll see a variety of investment offerings. For this exercise I chose "The Dreyfus Socially Responsible Growth Fund, Inc."
  9. This socially responsible fund charges and additional 0.82% in fees (see bottom of page). So all told this "investment" costs 2.22%. Yikes.
Again, I want to emphasize this information is for products offered in California. You will probably have to contact each company to get this information for the products and services they offer in your state.

 

Dan Otter

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Hi

 

Have you considered doing a Roth instead of a 403B? If you will be saving up to $5,000 a year I would highly

recommend that option becuase you can then chose one of the better companies.

 

 

Yes, I would save any other money in a taxable account. There are tax managed and index funds which would keep distributions low. Do invest in bonds using the Roth however.

 

Hi Tony,

 

Thank you for the quick response, I appreciate it. I currently do a $5,000. Roth every year, through a financial advisor. I never relied on myself, just let the advisor tell me where to put my money. I'm no longer interested in adding money to that account, given what I now understand about loads. This year I put my 2009 Roth with Fidelity, in the Freedom Fund. I'm not savy about stock so I did the target age fund. I did the Freedom Fund, but now I read how Vanguard has cheaper expense ratio. So, if I go with a target age fund again, maybe I should do my Roth with Vanguard next year.

 

I read the phrases "tax managed and index funds". Can you tell me the specific names of recommended tax managed and index funds at Fidelity, (or any other fund company)? You said to invest in bonds using the Roth. Can you also name some of them? If my vendor's list is poor, I'll have to save with these funds. You see so many names of funds, it becomes overwhelming to someone new to managing their own funds.

 

Thanks in advance!

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Hi Anne,

 

If you haven't already I encourage you to check out these vendors at 403bcompare. This is a website operated by the state of California where vendors offering 403(b) product in the state must register and disclose their fee information. Every vendor on your list except Horan Securities and Variable Annuity Life Insurance Co. is in the data base. Keep in mind the products and services offered in California may be different than the ones offered in your state (which state are you in?). Here's how it works:

  1. Go to: www.403bcompare.com
  2. Click "find a vendor" on right hand side of home page (under Shortcuts) — You'll see a page that lets you alphabetically browse by vendor
  3. Choose a vendor, for example from your list, choose A and "American Fidelity Assurance Company" — the first page give you general company information
  4. Choose the "Product List" tab at top — you'll see that in California they offer three products: 2 fixed annuities and something called the "AFAdvantage Variable Annuity"
  5. Select "AFAdvantage Variable Annuity" — you'll see product information
  6. Click the "Fees and Charges" tab at top — you'll see that in California this product charges: $15 annually, 0.15% administration fee, 1.25% mortality and expense fee. You'll also see there is a surrender charge lasting 8 years, and there is a distribution charge of 0.10% (not sure exactly what this means, a charge on all distributions?). Keep in mind these charges do not include the subaccount fee.
  7. Select the "Subaccount" tab at top right
  8. You'll see a variety of investment offerings. For this exercise I chose "The Dreyfus Socially Responsible Growth Fund, Inc."
  9. This socially responsible fund charges and additional 0.82% in fees (see bottom of page). So all told this "investment" costs 2.22%. Yikes.
Again, I want to emphasize this information is for products offered in California. You will probably have to contact each company to get this information for the products and services they offer in your state.

 

Dan Otter

 

 

Hi Dan,

 

Thank you for showing me the 403bcompare website. I looked up every company written on my list. I did a search for 403b product information in Ohio. I couldn't come up with a similar website for Ohio, so I will have to stick to emailing or calling companies, or reading prospectives on the internet. My companies listed don't look promising, as far as fees go. The Roth is a definite for me, and I'm continuing to learn where I should invest after tax dollars.

 

Thank you for writing your book Teach and Retire Rich. I have learned so much from your book, and it has spawned more interest and learning about taking control of my own money. I recommend it to teachers researching at this website!!

 

Sincerely, Anne

 

 

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Anne

 

 

First of all, the nice thing about Roth IRA is that you can easily transfer from one company to another with no restrictions and minimal paperwork. Fidelity is a decent choice but should you chose to transfer it to Vanguard you can, then contribute to it without an advisor getting a chunk of the money. Thats what I would do. Vanguard has top rated target retirement funds with no load and very low expenses. They are cheaper than the Fidelity funds you are in.

 

 

Usually, the fund will have the word " tax managed" in the fund name. Go to Vanguard.com and check their fund listings as they have some tax managed choices. Also, Index funds don't trade much so they are naturally

tax-managed and would be a good choice. One exception: Bond funds are best left in tax-deferred accounts or roth accounts becuase they spit out dividends that will raise your tax load.

 

I own Vanguard small cap tax managed fund as a small part of my portfolio and love it! Previously I owned a terrible fund ( I won't mention the name) that caused my taxes to go go up each year because it distributed thousands of dollars in capital gains. One I got rid of it, my taxes went down. Small cap/mid cap funds are notorious for this so be careful.

 

I don't own just Vanguard Funds but more and more of my money has been going into their index funds and I don't regret the decision at all. Remember, experts become experts because we don't take the time to educate ourselves and they do. WE all can be experts too. I commend you for asking questions and I want you to remember that the number one predictor of success in investing is low cost. The second bit of advice is to monitor your risk. Did you know that Vanguard Total Bond Market Index gain an average 6% a year over the last ten years beating out most stock funds over that period? My advice is to have plenty of bonds that match your age. If you are 50 then you should have 50% in Bonds.

 

I learned that lesson the hard way. Others on this site like Steve give good advice that you can take to the bank. Follow the advice and you will be richer for it.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

Fidelity has some great index funds under the Spartan name but the minimum is 10,000. They are the cheapest

index funds on the planet.

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Hi, Anne. I'm not an expert on this like Dan is (and I hope he'll correct me if need be), but I'll venture a couple of observations:

 

1. Yep, that sounds like a poor group of options for your 403(b). You might want to tell your school district's benefits office that you are hoping for low-cost index fund options (like Vanguard group, TIAA-CREF or Dimensional Fund Advisors) in the future, and ask whether they have any plans for this. Hopefully, this concept won't be news to them. The 403 (b) is a great savings vehicle, so putting a little energy into agitating for this now could be very meaningful to your retirement.

 

2. Within Fidelity, focus on their "Spartan" funds--they are a small group of very low-cost index funds. The vast majority of Fidelity funds are considerably higher-cost than the spartan group.

 

3. Consolidating your various Roth accounts at one place (Vanguard would be a great choice) is fairly easy, and makes it easier to control your investments and might cut down on costs. No rush, but I would recommend you do that.

 

4. You don't want "tax managed" funds in your Roth, IRA or 403(b) accounts: those funds are designed to minimize taxes that don't apply at all in those tax-deferred (or tax-free, in the case of the Roth) accounts. Tax managed funds usually get slightly lower before-tax returns than the "normal" funds, so it could actually cost you money to use them in your Roth. Tax managed funds are basically useful to people who have substantial investments in a fully taxable (non-IRA) account and who are in a fairly high tax bracket. (In other words, if you end up passing on the 403(b) and doing most of your retirement savings in a taxable account, you will need to consider the effects of annual taxes. But not in the Roth accounts.)

 

5. Vanguard's Target retirement accounts would be a decent one-choice solution for retirement savings. If you want to get a little more involved with your asset allocation, google "lazy portfolios" for articles on some simple Vanguard-fund-based allocations. For more detail about how and why to allocate, check out the very informative articles on investment manager Paul Merriman's website, fundadvice.com. He's got a remarkable amount of solid info and specific recommended portfolios on there, and you don't need to pay, register or sift through ads for his services. Look for the articles called "the perfect portfolio" and "the ultimate buy-and-hold strategy." I learned a great deal from those.

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Anne

 

 

First of all, the nice thing about Roth IRA is that you can easily transfer from one company to another with no restrictions and minimal paperwork. Fidelity is a decent choice but should you chose to transfer it to Vanguard you can, then contribute to it without an advisor getting a chunk of the money. Thats what I would do. Vanguard has top rated target retirement funds with no load and very low expenses. They are cheaper than the Fidelity funds you are in.

 

 

Usually, the fund will have the word " tax managed" in the fund name. Go to Vanguard.com and check their fund listings as they have some tax managed choices. Also, Index funds don't trade much so they are naturally

tax-managed and would be a good choice. One exception: Bond funds are best left in tax-deferred accounts or roth accounts becuase they spit out dividends that will raise your tax load.

 

I own Vanguard small cap tax managed fund as a small part of my portfolio and love it! Previously I owned a terrible fund ( I won't mention the name) that caused my taxes to go go up each year because it distributed thousands of dollars in capital gains. One I got rid of it, my taxes went down. Small cap/mid cap funds are notorious for this so be careful.

 

I don't own just Vanguard Funds but more and more of my money has been going into their index funds and I don't regret the decision at all. Remember, experts become experts because we don't take the time to educate ourselves and they do. WE all can be experts too. I commend you for asking questions and I want you to remember that the number one predictor of success in investing is low cost. The second bit of advice is to monitor your risk. Did you know that Vanguard Total Bond Market Index gain an average 6% a year over the last ten years beating out most stock funds over that period? My advice is to have plenty of bonds that match your age. If you are 50 then you should have 50% in Bonds.

 

I learned that lesson the hard way. Others on this site like Steve give good advice that you can take to the bank. Follow the advice and you will be richer for it.

 

Tony

 

Fidelity has some great index funds under the Spartan name but the minimum is 10,000. They are the cheapest

index funds on the planet.

 

 

Tony,

 

Thank you for all the information about Vanguard. I'm going to check into moving/initiating my next Roth with them. I'm still going to try to find like minded teachers who want to add a better vendor to our list! But, I can work on my own Roth and after tax funds, too, in case we don't get a new vendor.

 

Yesterday I got an email from the Variable Annuity Life Insurance Company agent, (VALIC). We had met once for information. She said it would only take 10 - 15 minutes to sign up and wanted to know when I would like to meet to sign paperwork. I'm not going that direction!

 

Thanks again,

Ellen

 

 

 

 

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Hi, Anne. I'm not an expert on this like Dan is (and I hope he'll correct me if need be), but I'll venture a couple of observations:

 

1. Yep, that sounds like a poor group of options for your 403(b). You might want to tell your school district's benefits office that you are hoping for low-cost index fund options (like Vanguard group, TIAA-CREF or Dimensional Fund Advisors) in the future, and ask whether they have any plans for this. Hopefully, this concept won't be news to them. The 403 (b) is a great savings vehicle, so putting a little energy into agitating for this now could be very meaningful to your retirement.

 

2. Within Fidelity, focus on their "Spartan" funds--they are a small group of very low-cost index funds. The vast majority of Fidelity funds are considerably higher-cost than the spartan group.

 

3. Consolidating your various Roth accounts at one place (Vanguard would be a great choice) is fairly easy, and makes it easier to control your investments and might cut down on costs. No rush, but I would recommend you do that.

 

4. You don't want "tax managed" funds in your Roth, IRA or 403(b) accounts: those funds are designed to minimize taxes that don't apply at all in those tax-deferred (or tax-free, in the case of the Roth) accounts. Tax managed funds usually get slightly lower before-tax returns than the "normal" funds, so it could actually cost you money to use them in your Roth. Tax managed funds are basically useful to people who have substantial investments in a fully taxable (non-IRA) account and who are in a fairly high tax bracket. (In other words, if you end up passing on the 403(b) and doing most of your retirement savings in a taxable account, you will need to consider the effects of annual taxes. But not in the Roth accounts.)

 

5. Vanguard's Target retirement accounts would be a decent one-choice solution for retirement savings. If you want to get a little more involved with your asset allocation, google "lazy portfolios" for articles on some simple Vanguard-fund-based allocations. For more detail about how and why to allocate, check out the very informative articles on investment manager Paul Merriman's website, fundadvice.com. He's got a remarkable amount of solid info and specific recommended portfolios on there, and you don't need to pay, register or sift through ads for his services. Look for the articles called "the perfect portfolio" and "the ultimate buy-and-hold strategy." I learned a great deal from those.

 

 

Hi whyme,

 

Thanks for the input about Spartan funds at Fidelity. Also, I'll check into the fundadvice.com website to learn more. I appreciate the information from experienced investors!!

 

 

 

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Ellen

 

I wish more folks were like you. You're a success story!! The advice given on this thread is the truth and you can take it to the bank.

 

Good luck!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

First of all, the nice thing about Roth IRA is that you can easily transfer from one company to another with no restrictions and minimal paperwork. Fidelity is a decent choice but should you chose to transfer it to Vanguard you can, then contribute to it without an advisor getting a chunk of the money. Thats what I would do. Vanguard has top rated target retirement funds with no load and very low expenses. They are cheaper than the Fidelity funds you are in.

 

 

Usually, the fund will have the word " tax managed" in the fund name. Go to Vanguard.com and check their fund listings as they have some tax managed choices. Also, Index funds don't trade much so they are naturally

tax-managed and would be a good choice. One exception: Bond funds are best left in tax-deferred accounts or roth accounts becuase they spit out dividends that will raise your tax load.

 

I own Vanguard small cap tax managed fund as a small part of my portfolio and love it! Previously I owned a terrible fund ( I won't mention the name) that caused my taxes to go go up each year because it distributed thousands of dollars in capital gains. One I got rid of it, my taxes went down. Small cap/mid cap funds are notorious for this so be careful.

 

I don't own just Vanguard Funds but more and more of my money has been going into their index funds and I don't regret the decision at all. Remember, experts become experts because we don't take the time to educate ourselves and they do. WE all can be experts too. I commend you for asking questions and I want you to remember that the number one predictor of success in investing is low cost. The second bit of advice is to monitor your risk. Did you know that Vanguard Total Bond Market Index gain an average 6% a year over the last ten years beating out most stock funds over that period? My advice is to have plenty of bonds that match your age. If you are 50 then you should have 50% in Bonds.

 

I learned that lesson the hard way. Others on this site like Steve give good advice that you can take to the bank. Follow the advice and you will be richer for it.

 

Tony

 

Fidelity has some great index funds under the Spartan name but the minimum is 10,000. They are the cheapest

index funds on the planet.

 

 

Tony,

 

Thank you for all the information about Vanguard. I'm going to check into moving/initiating my next Roth with them. I'm still going to try to find like minded teachers who want to add a better vendor to our list! But, I can work on my own Roth and after tax funds, too, in case we don't get a new vendor.

 

Yesterday I got an email from the Variable Annuity Life Insurance Company agent, (VALIC). We had met once for information. She said it would only take 10 - 15 minutes to sign up and wanted to know when I would like to meet to sign paperwork. I'm not going that direction!

 

Thanks again,

Ellen

 

 

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Tony,

 

I told you I was going to move my Fidelity Freedom Fund to Vanguard's Target Retirement Fund. I will retire in June of 2017, which is between 2015 and 2020. I put my IRA in Freedom Fund 2020, unsure of which I should choose between.....Perhaps that risk level is too high! See below:

 

Freedom Fund 2020 = @ 64% stock. Freedom Fund 2015 = @ 52% stock.

 

Vanguard Target Retirement 2020 = @ 68% stock. Vanguard Target Retirement 2015 = @ 61% stock.

 

Given I'm 52 years old and 8 years from retirement, are you thinking I should be in the 2015 Funds? Even Vanguard's 2015 is high in the percent of stocks!

 

Thanks for your advice!

 

 

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Given I'm 52 years old and 8 years from retirement, are you thinking I should be in the 2015 Funds? Even Vanguard's 2015 is high in the percent of stocks!

 

 

 

Anne, I'm going to butt in even though I'm not Tony, I hope you don't mind.

 

The question of what percentage of your portfolio goes into equities depends on a lot of variables: do you have other sources of savings, investment or retirement income? Do you have a large amount of equity in a house, and do you expect to sell it and "downsize" in retirement? If you can count on a substantial pension, you may not need to take much money out of your portfolio right away upon retirement, and might think of the "target date" as being some years beyond your actual retirement date, as the time you'll actually begin substantial withdrawals. If you want this portfolio to provide you a lifetime source of income, think about how the money will grow across your whole lifetime, which means planning for 30 or 35 years beyond your retirement date. If you're fortunate enough that you expect to leave part of your portfolio to an heir, you can move that date out even further--think of investing for your heir's timeframe.

 

There's also an emotional aspect to this choice. If you are going to lose sleep or --even worse-- panic and sell your stocks if the value of your portfolio drops by more than, say, 30%, then you should reduce your equity exposure to the point that you'll be comfortable staying the course. We've just been through a situation where all-equity portfolios dropped in some cases more than 50%. How did you handle it? If the thought of 65% stocks makes you very nervous, than it's too much stock for you, even if the statistics suggest that's a sensible figure.

 

That fundadvice.com site (which I have no connection to, by the way, I've just found it to be an exceptionally information-rich web site) has a chart showing the amount of volatility and average rate of return over several decades of portfolios with various bond/stock mixes. You might find that useful.

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Anne

 

I am sorry if I scared you. Whyme is right ,there are lots of variables involved in making financial decisions.

 

There really is no one size fits all .

 

John Bogle recommends we keep our age in bonds. I am 55 with only 6 years until retirement. I am only 25% in bonds currently, but I keep adding to them.

 

The stock market is a risky place. I should know ,last years crash cost me plenty because I was completely in mutual fund STOCK funds. I was arrogant. Luckily I have time to recoup those loses.

 

I think at your age you would be better off keeping a hefty amount of your savings inshort term or intermediate bonds. Thats what you find in the Vanguard Target Funds I think your age in bonds concept is a good one but its not an exact science.

 

 

Imagine if the market crashed again just as you planned to retire. You would be devastated and might have to work longer.

 

The target market funds offered by vanguard offer decent downside protection. I would sign up for the year that has the bond allocation you feel most comfortable with.

 

The Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund outperformed many stock funds over 5 and ten years. That should tell you something.

 

 

Tony

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Given I'm 52 years old and 8 years from retirement, are you thinking I should be in the 2015 Funds? Even Vanguard's 2015 is high in the percent of stocks!

 

 

 

Anne, I'm going to butt in even though I'm not Tony, I hope you don't mind.

 

The question of what percentage of your portfolio goes into equities depends on a lot of variables: do you have other sources of savings, investment or retirement income? Do you have a large amount of equity in a house, and do you expect to sell it and "downsize" in retirement? If you can count on a substantial pension, you may not need to take much money out of your portfolio right away upon retirement, and might think of the "target date" as being some years beyond your actual retirement date, as the time you'll actually begin substantial withdrawals. If you want this portfolio to provide you a lifetime source of income, think about how the money will grow across your whole lifetime, which means planning for 30 or 35 years beyond your retirement date. If you're fortunate enough that you expect to leave part of your portfolio to an heir, you can move that date out even further--think of investing for your heir's timeframe.

 

There's also an emotional aspect to this choice. If you are going to lose sleep or --even worse-- panic and sell your stocks if the value of your portfolio drops by more than, say, 30%, then you should reduce your equity exposure to the point that you'll be comfortable staying the course. We've just been through a situation where all-equity portfolios dropped in some cases more than 50%. How did you handle it? If the thought of 65% stocks makes you very nervous, than it's too much stock for you, even if the statistics suggest that's a sensible figure.

 

That fundadvice.com site (which I have no connection to, by the way, I've just found it to be an exceptionally information-rich web site) has a chart showing the amount of volatility and average rate of return over several decades of portfolios with various bond/stock mixes. You might find that useful.

 

 

 

Hi whyme,

 

I see what you're saying about considering all the variables that apply to me personally, plus how willing am I to take risks....I need to analyze my circumstances along with thinking about the emotional aspect. I understand! I found the chart at fundadvice.com, under Must-Read Retirement Articles- "Fine Tuning Your Asset Allocation". Thank you for more educating, I appreciate it! I hope others can benefit from studying the chart, too. Thanks, again.

 

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Anne

 

I am sorry if I scared you. Whyme is right ,there are lots of variables involved in making financial decisions.

 

There really is no one size fits all .

 

John Bogle recommends we keep our age in bonds. I am 55 with only 6 years until retirement. I am only 25% in bonds currently, but I keep adding to them.

 

The stock market is a risky place. I should know ,last years crash cost me plenty because I was completely in mutual fund STOCK funds. I was arrogant. Luckily I have time to recoup those loses.

 

I think at your age you would be better off keeping a hefty amount of your savings inshort term or intermediate bonds. Thats what you find in the Vanguard Target Funds I think your age in bonds concept is a good one but its not an exact science.

 

 

Imagine if the market crashed again just as you planned to retire. You would be devastated and might have to work longer.

 

The target market funds offered by vanguard offer decent downside protection. I would sign up for the year that has the bond allocation you feel most comfortable with.

 

The Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund outperformed many stock funds over 5 and ten years. That should tell you something.

 

 

Tony

 

 

Hi Tony,

 

I think I wasn't scared, but more alerted that there was something else I needed to learn more about. Your note prompted me to research more, and so I've read some articles by John Bogle about keeping your age in mind regarding bonds. I'm getting a clearer picture of how I can invest my IRA and other after tax money, with Spartan funds or Vanguard index funds. I'm closer to decision making and how best to save for retirement.

 

Thanks for all your input!! I'm so grateful to have found teachers, in the same boat as me, that I can talk to about these money matters! THANK YOU!

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