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bill mahoney

Discourse On These Boards

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You know folks you are losing a lot of people with all the name calling that is going on. Dan if you find an objectionable post from a professional then you should pull it. Or from anyone else for that matter. Having topic headings such as "what is .... afraid of" is of no real value or use. Can we try and get back to what this site is meant to be a place for basic education and answering of questions for 403b participants.

 

There are times an annuity is a valid investment option inside a qualified plan. There are to many sharks in the 403b industry. There are to many variable annuities and fiexed annuities being sold. There is a place for 403b life insurance. There is a place for 403b 7 accounts ( which the vast majority of people should be in ). What should be discussed is the proper places for all these options. What should be discussed is the where, why ,and when they should be used. Can we please get back to these questions and stop the insults from flying.

 

Bill Mahoney

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Bill and Hal,

 

I agree completely with you. I share the blame for calling out jphillips. I apologize for that. We will be much more proactive in pulling angry exchanges.

 

Dan Otter

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Jphilips,

 

If you would like to spread lies and falsehoods about 403bwise, like much of the insurance industry, go ahead - but you are not being true to what you really know - that 403bwise is a voice that is never heard in this industry and one that should be heard. You can say things like 403bwise is a shill for TIAA, but the truth and the facts do not bear that out - TIAA barely even exists in the k-12 marketplace and has no plans to expand, thus it does very little good for 403bwise to act as a "shill." TIAA is an advertising partner, as are many other companies.

 

Your quip about Ellie Lowder is wrong, please try to add some accuracy to your posts. As with any story on 403bwise, it eventually is moved to the archive, if you do just a tiny amount of work you will find that Ellie's story still exists on this site, categorized in the month in which it was ran (March).

 

I agree with Bill, but at the same time will not hesitate to call out some who is clearly making misleading and false statements - that would be you.

 

ScottyD

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Jim,

 

You would have a point if my story about NYSUT/ING was on the front page but it too is in the archives. Remember my urging you to gather your thoughts prior to posting. Please try it...you will be the only one to benefit from it.

 

Peace,

Joel

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Not to beat a dead horse, but there's an important distinction to be made, and I'm not entirely sure anyone's made it yet: the website and the discussion group are two different entities. And while I have wrongly criticized the website itself for bias (I agree that it makes a concerted effort to present balance most of the time), I stand by the characterization of this discussion board as a place where opposing viewpoints have, in the past, simply been shouted down and out of town.

 

I hope that's changing now. To the extent that I may have contributed to the low level of discourse, I apologize. I reserve the right to disagree, of course, but I'll do so respectfully going forward.

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Jphillips,

 

I am deeply saddened by the offensive language you used about Joel in your post. That is the reason your post was removed. It is really hard to believe that not only would you do this at all but that you would do it in a post that asks for decency. I will address the other contents of your post so others will not think we are running or hiding from your opinions.

 

1) If you want to say this site is nothing more than a shill for TIAA-CREF then that is fine and that is your opinion. TIAA-CREF is one of several advertisers of this site. That they are advertisers is clearly marked on the home page. I am not responsible for what others post about companies on this Discussion Board.

 

2) If you think it is your duty as a union leader to tell all that this site is biased, be my guest. It would be dead wrong, of course. I have little respect for anyone who tells me how to think. I would guess many others share the same opinion.

 

3) We have not taken the link to the Ellie Lowder story off of our site. It is directly accessible in two places:

 

On the right hand column of the original story: "Do Annuities Make Sense Inside a 403(b) or 457(b)?"

http://www.403bwise.com/wisemoves/annuities.html

 

additionally it is listed under March 2004 in our archives section:

http://www.403bwise.com/news/archive.html

 

March 2004

Rebuttal to: "Do Annuities Makes Sense Inside a 403(b) or 457(b)?"

3/31/04 — Ellie Lowder, MCRS, a veteran independent consultant in the 403(b) market segment rebuts several points made in a story questioning the use of annuity products. [403(b)wise]

http://www.403bwise.com/wisemoves/annuities_el.html

 

4) I have sent you three PM messages. I have a record of each one. I am sorry if you are unable to access these messages. I have never had difficulty PMing someone before.

 

 

Dan Otter

 

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Guys,

 

I think there are a couple of important points to keep in mind. First, there are plethora of investment theories and philosophies. Many of them do not work, but many do work. Whatever opinion one holds to does not make them a shill for a fund company that matches their philosophy. It is their money, and they should invest it as they see fit.

 

Second, I think a lot of the animosity comes from the unscrupulous 403(b) agents. Prior to joining my former employer, I had no experience with 403(b) plans. I was shocked by the sales practice prevalant in the industry. Basically it is an industry of insurance agents pretending to be investment experts. In my opinion, the products that these charlatans sell are the victims of guilt by association. Thus, many believe annuities are bad, loaded funds are bad, etc. Further, because of the abuses in the industry, they are hardened in their positions. The fact is that there are very few investment products that are inherently bad. The suitability of the product is determined by the client, and every client is different.

 

That being said, for the most part the industry representatives on 403bwise, like Scotty, are not part of these sharks. I assume that Jim does not subscribe to these sales practices either. So, if we can all learn to agree to disagree amiably, this forum can benefit from healthy debate.

 

Mark Fischer, CFA

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