Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Redwoods

Redwoods

Recommended Posts

Joel,

 

You know I think highly of you, it's just I am a pain in the butt about anyone giving specific advice to people without all the facts. I will even grant you that you are most likely right, however, in my opinion most likely is not good enough if someone is giving specific advice to anyone. Especially when it would be so easy to get the facts before someone does give specific advice.

 

Bill Mahoney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,

 

I have no problem with anyone suggesting that if someone is willing to do the work they can invest on their own and if they do Vanguard and TIAA CREFF are great options for them to look at. My problem is the attacks that go on about any pro doing business in this market, even if they are doing the job right. There are a lot of people that would not invest in their 403bs without a professionals help. Be it with load funds or fee based (which I am) these people are being well served by pros that do it right. I am one of the first to attack a pro that is taking advantage of their "clients".

 

Please keep pushing people to get a good education on investing so if they want to do it themselves they can do it right. Please keep talking about the great options that Vanguard and TIAA_CREFF offer. Please keep calling on the carpet the pros that do it wrong. Just please stop attacking any and all pros that work this market. We want this to be a place that all 403b participants feel comfortable coming to, to get some basic education and advice. Be they do it yourself investors, or people that would rather pay for a professionals help and advice.

 

Bill Mahoney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

Interesting that you still think I attack any or all pros who are trying to do their job. I think it’s totally unfair to characterize me as attacking. But then again, life is not fair. I accept my fate as an attacker when my colleagues come up to me and say, "I never knew about Vanguard or TIAA CREF." That fact that my hard working colleagues never heard of these companies is horrible (These are people who want to know). The system is set up by the sales hyperbole of Wall Street and the mass media. I have a problem with that, but it’s not only me. Lots of folks brighter than I have problems with Wall Street's perception of investing (e.g., book: "Random walk down wall street"). My firm belief is that educators can do it themselves and I will stand by that belief. All they need is objective information. If I am stubborn, narrow and the like, than so be it. I am a consumer and I have the freedom to have an opinion that is not just mine alone. Heck, I am not smart enough to invent the do it yourself approach.

Steve

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My firm belief is that educators can do it themselves and I will stand by that belief. All they need is objective information.

 

Not to butt in here, but...

 

1.) Educators need not only objective information, but the DESIRE to do it themselves. Most educators lack that willingness, and THAT is the #1 reason I see that they turn to professionals for advice.

 

2.) I'm not sure I believe there IS such a thing as objective information anymore. The provider of information always has an agenda. The best you can probably hope for is a non-profit organization like TIAA-CREF, since their agenda is a benevolent one, but even they lack the resources to hire a proper group of salaried professionals to get the word out. If TIAA-CREF had a non-commissioned "sales force" (for lack of a better word) to compete with the commissioned salesmen out there, they would rake in the assets hand over fist. It's a shame they can't see their way to doing that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FT,

I am only talking about those people who bother to show up at our monthly meetings and have lots of desire to learn and take responsibility. Why is it that they found our very tiny meeting and yet could not find out for themselves that TIAA CREF and other no load companies are available? It pretty disgusting. The union won't tell them and by the time you work your way through LAUSD to find the right office, most give up and go to a rep that was recommended by a friend or colleague. Thats not right.

Objective information is defined as a district or union employee who has knowledge of most of the 403b vendors, their fees and commissions. Its like going online a getting what a car dealership pays for a new car and then going to that dealership and negotiating a deal.

Subjective information is defined as listening to a sales pitch by a rep from one company. Unfortunately, this is the standard practice in the 403b world with k12 school districts and the unions.

There is so much misinformation about what TIAA CREF can and cannot do. They have field offices and one to one consultants with all district employees. They have tried very hard to become the approved vendor from my union and tried hard to become noticed by my district. My union would have nothing to do with them and the district has its scared cow policies. The district wants to set up a 457 and sent out an RFP to vendors. Guess what, TIAA CREF heard about this from me! Fortunately, they will have a 457 RFP in time to be considered.

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Steve, I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to find out information as basic as that. In a perfect world, the union would provide the bare minimum of a list of providers, with contact information. With minimal additional effort, some basic information about investment options, expense ratios, etc., could and should also be provided.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve, I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to find out information as basic as that. In a perfect world, the union would provide the bare minimum of a list of providers, with contact information. With minimal additional effort, some basic information about investment options, expense ratios, etc., could and should also be provided.

===============================================

I believe the LA teachers union does not receive an endorsement fee from any specific vendor and they still do not want to step up to the plate and provide this elementary disclosure to their members. FT, how successful would you be if you asked for this info from your NY teachers union who has endorsed a specific vendor? Call them up and get back to us with their reply.

 

Joel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

 

Why let facts get in the way. What studies show that "pro's get out at the right time and in at the right time?

 

While I do not subscibe to MPT, EMT and CAPM, I also know that a lot of the pros do no better than the public.

 

If you have read my past commetns, I am not against financial advisors. However, there a a lot of abuses in the 403b marketplace. The NASD and SEC and states, have not shown a lot of interest in regulating the 403b market.

 

Joel is correct that an posts on this board by an associated person of a broker/dealer must be approved by a principal.

 

Mark Fischer, CFA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark,

 

I never claimed pros could time the markets. In fact a good pro realizes they cannot. It is the chasing of returns that kills most people in investing and why the average investor has recieved a lot less then the funds they have been in returned. A good pro teaches and keeps their clients portfolios properly diversified and does not chase returns.And that is why clients that have had the true pros on average have done better then most do it yourself investors.

 

Now I am not stating that a person cannot propely educate themselves to do the same job, the vast majority can. However, a lot of people do not wish to put the time in to do so.

 

Bill Mahoney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill,

 

If the service offered by pros is a static asset allocation model, then in my opinion they are over paid. 10 minutes of internet searching will yield an acceptable investment mix., for free.

 

Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the LA teachers union does not receive an endorsement fee from any specific vendor and they still do not want to step up to the plate and provide this elementary disclosure to their members. FT, how successful would you be if you asked for this info from your NY teachers union who has endorsed a specific vendor? Call them up and get back to us with their reply.

 

 

Joel, you've given people "marching orders" enough times on this board (and been subsequently ignored) that you should know it's not appreciated. ("Call them and let us know what they say...")

 

The fact is, if I DID make such a call, NYSUT would inform me (correctly) that every district in the state of New York has a different vendors list from which to choose. It's the district's decision, not the union's, as far as which vendors are placed on the list and which ones aren't. Either way, the phone call to make would be to the individual district in which each teacher works. And to answer your question, I'm sure I'd be highly successful in securing this information. People in other districts may have different results...it would depend on their district. I certainly can't speak for all of the 500+ locals in New York State.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark,

 

It is not just asset allocation it is helping them stay the course. It is making sure they have a solid retirement plan. It is making sure they have proper liability coverages. It is making sure they have a proper estate plan. It is making sure that the funds that they have invested in are doing the job properly. It is making sure the clients understand thier budgets. It is making sure the clients the clients have proper life and disability coverages. Just to name a few things a good pro brings to the table as well as fund selection and asset allocation.

 

Bill Mahoney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hold on Bill,

For the most part we only talk about 403b plans on this site. The name of the site tells all of us that. Don't make the plain and ordinary 403b asset allocation, diversification, long term thinking with low cost funds more complicated than it really is. Mark is right on. Asset allocation, controlling costs, and staying the course with 403b is exactly what we are trying to get educators to learn. They can learn this stuff. I agree that life insurance, disability coverage, understanding everyday budgets (over estimated in my opinion), and the like are better served with a pro. If my memory serves me well and it does most of the time, we have had this discussion before.

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To all,

 

All of this chit chat is giving me a head ache. The FACT is if a teacher starts a 403(b) w/ an annuity company its not a BAD thing... If a rep. gets a teacher to start saving for retirement its not a BAD thing.... STRS, at least in the state I live in would not be enough to cover all expenses in retirement...are there better choices than others....sure there are, but let me ask this question.. is it better for a teacher to save in a annuity or nothing at all... This site is supposed to help teacher make an informed choice..stop bashing products, stop bashing reps...lets make this site useful rather than hurtful...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...