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Comparing 403bs

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<!--QuoteBegin--Sierra+Dec 30 2004, 12:18 AM-->

QUOTE (Sierra @ Dec 30 2004, 12:18 AM)
<!--QuoteEBegin--> So why are we honored with your commentary? I think you're just chicken!

 

Moreover did you not tell us that ING customers like you receive the Financial Counseling for free? NYSUT says different. Please be more careful with your assertions!

 

"The financial counseling program includes up to 3 hours per year of toll-free access to Ernst & Young LLP's Financial Planner Line. Objective financial counselors will provide assistance with your personal financial planning and answer questions about your plan. It also provides up to 3 written targeted financial reports on specific topics, access to E&Y's Financial Planning Center Web site, and an in-person consultation. The consultation can be scheduled with an ING Financial Advisers, LLC certified financial planner for $70 or with an E&Y financial counselor for $400." <!--QuoteEnd-->

<!--QuoteEEnd-->

Joel, did you seriously just call me "chicken" in an effort to get me to call a national talk show and request an appearance? I can barely stop laughing long enough to type. Are we in high school now???

 

You are quite correct in your letter-of-the-law citation of the Financial Planner Line, above. A friend of mine used the line quite regularly last year, and went well over her allotted three hours. She even asked them about it directly, and was told that the three-hour limitation exists to safeguard against somebody abusing the privilege, i.e., calling them every day for stock quotes, etc. She says the financial planner told her that E&Y had never invoked the three-hour limit against any NYSUT member, and did not expect to.

 

It might also interest you to know that while E&Y do indeed charge $400 for the in-person consultations described, ING routinely waives the $70 fee listed. The meeting thus scheduled is with a salaried financial planner with ING, not with one of their commissioned agents.

 

Hope this clarifies your questions.

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Guest Sierra

Joel, did you seriously just call me "chicken" in an effort to get me to call a national talk show and request an appearance? I can barely stop laughing long enough to type. Are we in high school now???

==============================================

I'm quite serious. Ted Siedle made the request to appear so why shouldn't some one like you defend your choice of investing. No one is more qualified to refute his assertions than a policyholder of the NYSUT/ING annuity. Afterall you feel you receive great service and value for your 200 basis points. You're surely not chicken to refute my assertions so you just need to do the same on national television. You are indeed chicken if you don't!

 

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Joel, did you seriously just call me "chicken" in an effort to get me to call a national talk show and request an appearance? I can barely stop laughing long enough to type. Are we in high school now???

============================

I'm quite serious. Ted Siedle made the request to appear so why shouldn't some one like you defend your choice of investing. No one is more qualified to refute his assertions than a policyholder of the NYSUT/ING annuity. Afterall you feel you receive great service and value for your 200 basis points. You're surely not chicken to refute my assertions so you just need to do the same on national television. You are indeed chicken if you don't!

And the entertainment value just continues to skyrocket.

 

Throw in some "clucking" sound effects and I'll consider it.

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Guest Sierra

FT,

 

Are you aware that 24 of the 51 funds offered by your NYSUT/ING Variable Annuity underperformed when measured by its benchmark index? These are the results as of September 30, 2004, the lastest reporting period.

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FT,

 

Are you aware that 24 of the 51 funds offered by your NYSUT/ING Variable Annuity underperformed when measured by its benchmark index? These are the results as of September 30, 2004, the lastest reporting period.

Color me skeptical of this, especially given that your assessment makes no mention of time frame (are we comparing results in one year? five? ten?), specific results, or benchmarks being used. I'd be happy to take a look at what you claim are the results if you can be more specific.

 

Then again...even taking your assessment at face value, if 24 of 51 investment options are underperforming, this would logically lead me to conclude that 27 of 51 investment options are meeting or beating their benchmarks! Given the much-ballyhooed failure of active fund managers to beat their benchmarks (with some estimates of the failure rate going as high as 80% or more), I'm pretty content with a 53% success rate.

 

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Guest Sierra

But when you take into consideration that most NYSUT/ING customers invest in the group (24 funds) that underperformed their benchmarks one can comfortably label this product, when taken as a whole, as substandard.

 

You have made it a point to tell us that your rep is a CFP and not all of the ING reps have that professional designation. So how have you made out over the last 1, 3, 5, and 10 years? Has your CFP/ING rep ever recommended a fund that underperformed?

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But when you take into consideration that most NYSUT/ING customers invest in the group (24 funds) that underperformed their benchmarks one can comfortably label this product, when taken as a whole, as substandard.

 

You certainly could, if that were a true statement. Care to show any evidence? Start with which 24 funds, exactly, are the underperformers. Then show us some evidence that NYSUT customers are concentrated in these funds. How could you possibly know how NYSUT customers invest, unless you worked for either NYSUT or ING and had access to such information?

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Guest Sierra

notmath:

 

As of the date of my posting, the 4th quarter results were not known. I retrieved these facts from the NYSUT/ING Opportunity Plus website. I assume in a few days the period ending December 31, 2004 will be posted.

 

Peace and hope,

Joel L. Frank

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Guest Sierra
But when you take into consideration that most NYSUT/ING customers invest in the group (24 funds) that underperformed their benchmarks one can comfortably label this product, when taken as a whole, as substandard.

 

You have made it a point to tell us that your rep is a CFP and not all of the ING reps have that professional designation. So how have you made out over the last 1, 3, 5, and 10 years? Has your CFP/ING rep ever recommended a fund that underperformed?

You have emphasized that you are pleased with the full service you get from your ING/rep. You have repeatedly said that fees are but one determinant in deciding on a method of investing 403(b) contributions ("full service" v no-load). So let's see if you are getting your money's worth (200 bp) over the "couple" of years you have said you have been investing with NYSUT/ING.

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But when you take into consideration that most NYSUT/ING customers invest in the group (24 funds) that underperformed their benchmarks one can comfortably label this product, when taken as a whole,  as substandard. 

 

You have made it a point to tell us that your rep is a CFP and not all of the ING reps have that professional designation.  So how have you made out over the last 1, 3, 5, and 10 years?  Has your CFP/ING rep ever recommended a fund that underperformed?

You have emphasized that you are pleased with the full service you get from your ING/rep. You have repeatedly said that fees are but one determinant in deciding on a method of investing 403(b) contributions ("full service" v no-load). So let's see if you are getting your money's worth (200 bp) over the "couple" of years you have said you have been investing with NYSUT/ING.

I am indeed satisfied, and I'd be happy to answer your questions if you'll answer the one I asked first.

 

You allege that there are 24 underperforming funds, and that "most" NYSUT/ING customers are concentrated in the underperformers. I asked you the names of the underperforming funds, as well as the time frame and benchmarks you were using to reach your conclusions. I'd also like to know how you have such intimate knowledge of the investment propensities of "most" of NYSUT's membership.

 

 

 

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Guest Sierra

The results are on the ING website. I did the research as of 9/30/04 for the last 10 years or for a shorter period if the fund has not be operational for 10 years. The underperformers are the following with their superior benchmarks in ( ).

 

My contention that most Opportunity Plus customers invested in the underperformers is based on the fact that they follow the name brands like Fidelity and invest in very large funds like the fidelity index 500 and fidelity equity-income, very large and well known funds. Another one that underperformed is the large well known Fidelity asset allocation fund. Another one is the very large and well known fidelity high income fund. Moreover, it is my belief that to make his or her job easier the recognizable brand names as well as index funds are "suggested" by the rep ie the ING index plus small cap fund.

 

 

GLOBAL/INTERNATIONAL

ING JP Morgan Fleming: minus 3.16 (minus 0.51)

ING VP Emerging mkts: minus 0.06 (plus 0.39)

ING VP International: minus 4.56 (minus 0.51)

 

AGGRESSIVE GROWTH

Aim V.I 7.33 (11.09)

FT vip 14.56 (14.71)

ING VP Global 0.20 ( 4.05)

ING VP Index plus small cap 9.79 ( 11.50)

Janus Aspen Mid Cap 7.63 ( 9.64)

 

GROWTH

Aim v.i. growth 5.41 (11.09)

Aim v.i premier 7.69 (11.09)

ING MFS minus 3.69 (minus 1.30)

ING UBS minus 2.16 (minus 1.30)

Janus Aspen Growth 8.16 (11.09)

 

GROWTH AND INCOME

AIM 9.07 (11.09)

Fidelity Equity-Income 10.22 (12.50)

Fidelity Index 500 10.80 (11.09)

ING VP Growth and Income 6.89 (11.09)

INg VP index plus large cap minus 1.68 (minus1.30)

Pioneer Equity Income 3.80 (4.31)

 

GROWTH AND INCOME

Calvert social balanced 8.20 (11.09)

ING vp balanced 9.54 (11.09)

 

ASSET ALLOCATION

Fidelity 7.09 (11.09)

ING vp strategic allocation 1.32 (2.95)

ING strategic allocation balanced 2.28 ( 4.03)

INg strategic allocation income 3.74 (4.88)

 

INCOME

Fidelity high income 4.55 (7.85)

ING intermediate bond 7.33 (7.66)

Oppenheimer Strategic Bond 7.53 (7.66)

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Joel, I'm not sure what ING website you're looking at. I'm looking at this one:

 

http://www6.ingretirementplans.com/custom/G5000OP_perf.pdf

 

It clearly shows the 10-year returns as of 9/30/04 for the investments you mention, and not ONE of the numbers matches up to the numbers you cite. Where are you getting your information?

 

Just looking at the first few: you list the ING JP Morgan Fleming return at -3.16, while the website lists it at +5.12, a staggering turnaround of more than 8%! You list ING VP Emerging mkts at -0.06, while the correct number is +0.14. For ING VP International, you say -4.56, whereas the website lists -5.87, but since that's a five-year return and you may have been listing ten-year benchmarks throughout, I'm not sure whether it beats its benchmark or not. For Aim V.I., you say +7.33, and the website says +7.00. For FT VIP, you say +14.56; the correct number is +15.35, which is also a five-year number. And on, and on.

 

Given these discrepancies, I'm not sure how much confidence to have in the benchmarks that you list here, either. But however you slice it, it's very likely that there are far fewer than 24 "underperformers" in the ING Opportunity Plus menu.

 

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I couldn't find any link to verify your data. I selected one I knew I had seen returns for

 

My Monday morning newspaper lists the 12/30 results of janus aspen mid cap growth (aggressive) return as 25.84. Subract 1.25 m&e fee 24.59. Vanguard midcap index - 15.64.

 

You continue to make assertions w/o data. You cut and paste, but you don't provide us with links.

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Guest Sierra

You have given the returns as of 11/30/04. I used 9/30/04 because the comparison to the benchmarks are on the same page. Let me know if you have trouble finding these pages and I will furnish you with the link.

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