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403bannuitysalesman

Why Insurance Companies will not do Self-directed 403bs

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I have been clamoring for a low-cost self-directed 403b product produced by the insurance companies for some time and have hit a wall. There is no interest at all by the agents or the companies.  Most reps want to be paid as much as possible and will not do anything that detracts from their pay.  The companies have also said that they do not want to go this route.  No one is listening and it is very frustrating. They basically said leave the industry if you do not like it.

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Take their advice. Seriously. You're hurting people every time you go to work.

I also don't believe you actually want this because it would hurt your bottom line. If everybody enrolled in low-cost, self-directed plans then you'd be out of a job. The fact that you keep showing up to work demonstrates you want this job.

Also for anybody reading this thread, although the original poster's sentiment that insurance companies don't support low-cost, self-directed plans is generally true...just know that it isn't universally true. For example,. Security Benefit offers a self-directed plan called NEA DIrectInvest. It is awesome and I documented here.

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WELL, what are you waiting for? LEAVE the industry! and read Scott D's book excellent book, The Wild West, if you truly want to look out for the teachers' best interest. 

Once again, 403bannuitysalesman, what do you want?

We have known the schemes, the "information", and terrible advice of the industry reps for decades. 

What do you WANT from us here? 

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Breaking out the large font. I’m just happy I’m not alone in not trusting these posts. They seem disingenuous to me.

...but of course keep posting if you want, it’s just my two cents. 

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10 minutes ago, EdLaFave said:

Breaking out the large font. I’m just happy I’m not alone in not trusting these posts. They seem disingenuous to me.

...but of course keep posting if you want, it’s just my two cents. 

I am waiting for an answer. He came here for a reason, and it's not to shoot the bull because we do not tolerate financial bull around here. If he doesn't know, I can accept that because I have a lot of information I can provide for him if he wants it, such as Scott's wonderful book for genuine financial advisers who truly want to help teachers in this very cruel 403(b) non ERISA world. 

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Which do you want your legacy to be?

403b annuity salesmen:. Thank you for signing me up in the beginning of my career to an inappropriate insurance product.   Yes this was my fault too but I do appreciate you clearly disclosing the fees associated for my account and their long term impact on me.  Most of the extra work i did outside of the classroom went straight to your fees.  I helped fund part of your retirement.

Krow36: Thank you for anonymously opening my eyes to the high fees my account was generating.   Thank you for teaching me what a expense ratio, 12b-1 fee, management fee, mortality fee, and others.  Also thank you for teaching about asset allocation and how to create one that fit my family's risk tolerance.  Thank you for spending hours checking my many questions even when they were very novice questions.  All while my friendly salesmen was dodging my questions once I smelled a skunk.  My salesmen was not responding yet krow36 who doesn't even know me is clearly and concisely answering all questions patiently.

 

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Bashdash, thanks for the kind words. Give yourself most of the credit for your eye-opening. You kept coming back with questions until it was clear what was going on. That makes the process so much easier. The great thing about the forums is that the poster not only learns, but also other readers. I’ve learned so much from reading the forum threads of others. By the way, I think you mentioned that your learning process started with reading one of Tara’s NY Times articles.

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To me 403bannuitysaleman’s situation is not as black and white as many of you write. He describes the many outrageous practices of his colleagues but he hasn’t said much about his own practices. Perhaps he tries to avoid selling his company’s more expensive products? He says he discloses the fees of company’s products but that most teachers ignore his advice. Perhaps most of his sales are of fixed annuities, where there is no 3% plus drain on the contributions due to fees? Yes, fixed annuities  are more of a savings account than an investment account, but it’s a savings account with a tax-deferral benefit. That’s actually what I had during my 403b contributing years (1976-1992). My 403b rep didn’t try to get me into a higher fee option. 

Many of you seem to be tar and feathering 403bannuitysaleman with the worst practices that he describes, which I think is most likely unwarranted. I think of him as a sort of whistleblower, all be it one without any whistleblower protections, benefits or higher authority to complain to. I’m glad Dan Otter has seen fit to allow him a platform here to express his perspective. He’s not pushing annuities here, he’s calling for self-directed low-cost index custodial accounts to be an available option in every school district! Sounds familiar. I would like to see his perspective given more coverage. Maybe a NYT article by Tara and Ron? A podcast interview?

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On 9/16/2018 at 12:35 PM, krow36 said:

To me 403bannuitysaleman’s situation is not as black and white as many of you write. He describes the many outrageous practices of his colleagues but he hasn’t said much about his own practices. Perhaps he tries to avoid selling his company’s more expensive products? He says he discloses the fees of company’s products but that most teachers ignore his advice. Perhaps most of his sales are of fixed annuities, where there is no 3% plus drain on the contributions due to fees? Yes, fixed annuities  are more of a savings account than an investment account, but it’s a savings account with a tax-deferral benefit. That’s actually what I had during my 403b contributing years (1976-1992). My 403b rep didn’t try to get me into a higher fee option. 

Many of you seem to be tar and feathering 403bannuitysaleman with the worst practices that he describes, which I think is most likely unwarranted. I think of him as a sort of whistleblower, all be it one without any whistleblower protections, benefits or higher authority to complain to. I’m glad Dan Otter has seen fit to allow him a platform here to express his perspective. He’s not pushing annuities here, he’s calling for self-directed low-cost index custodial accounts to be an available option in every school district! Sounds familiar. I would like to see his perspective given more coverage. Maybe a NYT article by Tara and Ron? A podcast interview?

3

Hi krow36 (aka, Dan),

I am perplexed by your post. It’s one thing to defend him but it’s quite another to tell us how to behave towards 403bannuitysaleman. It appears that you are equating "tar and feathering" with asking tough questions. We all know that his complaints about the practices and the products in the 403b world are ludicrous. I think it is perfectly legitimate for him to get out of the 403b sales force, read Scotty D's book "the wild west", which helps the profession have a successful practice as a fee-only fiduciary. Have you read Scott book? It's terrific.  Heck, I am giving 403bannuitysaleman career advice and he didn't even say thank you.

Of course, Dan Otter allows all points of view. BUT this is 403bwise, not another annuity sales website where salespeople (and some who claim to be teachers) come and defend fixed annuities, and we shouldn't ask tough questions? For this salesperson, he was complaining about the products and how ill-informed teachers are, so I gave him some advice, get out. And this was suggested by Ed, myself and one of his shark colleagues too! 

FYI I welcome 403bannuitysaleman posts and our discussions with him because it shows how nonfiduciaries think so that our colleagues can better protect themselves from all annuity salespeople, and stay away from ALL annuities.

Yeah, I know, I am using absolutes but in the 403b nonERISA world with public k12 school districts, a few absolutes are absolutely necessary. 

have a good day,

Steve

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3 hours ago, EdLaFave said:

Just a reminder that a primary goal of any troll job is to get people fighting with each other.

Yeah, it was n asty here years ago, but fortunately, all of those folks are gone. For a couple of years, one guy claimed he was a teacher but he absolutely loved his annuity agent (also his friend!) and defended all annuity sales and products. 

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