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Joel,

 

Your tone is throwing me off a bit. Seems a tad accusatory. On a board that talks mostly about fees, you start in with me about performance.

 

Was Dan Otters challenge to find the highest and lowest performing products net of fees or just the highest and lowest cost?

 

Please tell me what you know about Bob Brinker. Are you saying that following his market timing advice was/is good or bad? Do you think his newsletter is the panacea for school district employees?

 

What do you mean by "better off"? Do you mean highest possible performance? Or meeting the investment objectives that we set during our initial meetings?

 

Do you not want me to post here anymore? Its okay if you don't.

 

I am trying to find a suitable solution for all parties and thought this would be the logical place to start. Investement planners are not going to go completely away you know...If you get rid of me and others that are trying to find solutions - I could be replaced by something worse - much worse. These new regs go through and districts could end up with VALIC reps as the only choice. I guess I'm saying that at least I'm trying...I'm talking and working toward something better which is what I thought this site was about. And then you hit me with a question that, no matter how I answer it, you could twist to serve your purpose.

 

Final question: What if I charged clients $125-200 per hour to set up their TSA and I waived that if they put me on retainer where I would charge them either a flat fee based on their assets starting at approximately $575. to a high of lets say $3500. per year payable quarterly. -or- I could charge them something like .70bps on the first $300K and then lower that has the assets they invest move higher. Would this system be okay? - I want your honest opinion.

 

I know I put a lot in this email but please do your best to answer my questions. I really want to know what you know and think about Bob Brinker and the fee plan stated above.

 

Namaste,

 

JustMurph

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest Sierra

I am trying to see if your services over the last two decades matched Mr. Brinker's. More than that I am asking you to produce your results so they can be compared with ANY investment manager BB or anyone else for that matter. Surely it is a reasonable request. If I sat down with you (as a prospect) and showed you BB returns and asked you to produce your returns for comparision would you answer me in the same manner?

 

Peace and hope,

Joel L. Frank

 

 

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Joel,

 

I do not know what Mr. Brinkers exact returns have been but to keep this conversation going I will say that my returns have not been as good.

 

No I have not out performed any investment manager BB or anyone else for that matter.

 

But I have met my client's investment objectives while lowering their overall portfolio risk because that's what I believe in.

 

Okay, so - Now its your turn:

 

Tell me what you think about Bob Brinker and tell me about the fee schedule below:

 

What if I charged clients $125-200 per hour to set up their TSA and I waived that if they put me on retainer where I would charge them either a flat fee based on their assets starting at approximately $575. to a high of lets say $3500. per year payable quarterly. -or- I could charge them something like .70bps on the first $300K and then lower that as the assets they invest move higher.

 

What do you think?

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Guest Sierra

I do not know what Mr. Brinkers exact returns have been but to keep this conversation going I will say that my returns have not been as good.

 

No I have not out performed any investment manager BB or anyone else for that matter.

 

But I have met my client's investment objectives while lowering their overall portfolio risk because that's what I believe in.

===============================================

You state that all investment managers have outperformed your management style and then assert that your client's objectives have been met. This is presumptuous and self serving on your part. You should not assume that just because a client remains silent, that his or her investment objectives have been achieved because YOU lowered their overall portfolio risk. This is just rationalization on your part. Many individuals who retain private investment advisors never digest or undersand the investment returns achieved. Simply put some of your clients could be "out to lunch" and most probably would be shocked to learn that you, by your own admission, have underpeformed all investment managers.

 

Peace and Hope,

Joel

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Joel,

 

Sorry about my last post. I admit that I was being a smart and I was just trying to get you to answer my questions. But I see now that you just like to ask the questions. I've noticed that you love to mix it up with the occasional rep that comes in. This is really fun...so, I'm going to call your bluff. Below is an example of my actual returns:

 

Here are my returns after all fee's & expenses:

 

5 yr - 1.83%

10yr - 12.52%

20yr - 13.33%

 

Keep in mind that not all my clients get the same exact portfolio it differs based on their attitudes toward risk, investment horizon etc...

 

So there they are Joel. Pick away at them. I know that they are just average returns. But those are my numbers I can't hide from them. Tell me how much I suck compared to ALL the other managers in the World. This is your message board, I'm just a visitor.

 

Vanguard and TIAA-CREF are the favorite fund families listed here and it's for good reason...but have they out-performed EVERY other manager?

 

You've got to answer MY questions now right?

 

Tell me about Bob Brinker...Doesn't have to be in-depth, Just tell me what you know. You didn't just throw his name out there did you?

 

Give me your opinion on the fee schedule I listed.

 

Nearly 10% of all posts on this message board come from you. You post almost twice a day! That means you give your opinion here more than most. I'm sure you don't want to give all these people the wrong impression by just calling into question my credibility without answering the questions I have for you...would you? You want people to think your being fair and objective right?

 

Cmon Joel...just a quick answer and your opinion.

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JustMurph,

 

I've been out of town for the last few days, so I couldn't respond to your last post.

 

You sound MUCH better than the vast majority of advisers. The reason that some people on this board are so anti-adviser has to do with their prior experiences with people who did, indeed, rip them off. High management fees, 12b1 fees, M&E costs, and lack of disclosure are only some of the problems that many of us have experienced. So when we found out that there are alternatives, we became advocates for investing on our own, and for helping others avoid the mistakes that we ourselves made.

 

As I stated, you seem much bettter than most advisers. The fact that you disclose how you are compensated and clearly disclose costs puts you head and shoulders above the type of advisers that many on this board suffered from. I am certainly not against advisers per se; if people need help and/or simply do not want to invest on their own, then advisers are entirely appropriate. But please excuse the rest of us if, due to our own unfortunate experiences, we are very wary of those who are not as good and as ethical as you. We will continue to suggest simple and low cost alternatives.

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Westerndad,

 

My son is in first grade and attends school in the district that I work in the most. It would kill me if anyone thought that I was unethical...I would be setting a bad example for my Son. Right now when I ask him what I do - he says that I "help people with their money". Could you imagine if a Teacher told him that I ripped them off! If he spoke with Joel he would probably run away from home!

 

I want to be the guy that everyone looks at and says...he's doing the job right. I want to sell as low a fee product as possible and still keep my doors open.

 

Thanks for your post,

 

JustMurph

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Guest Sierra

I was really getting excited, I am working on a plan that (hopefully) would enable me to offer funds at NAV and charge a 1% fee for ongoing tsa contributions - (not just to theTeachers, but the Janitors and the staff etc...) - Selling a load waived fund and charging 1%.

=============================================

Dear "Smart ":

 

If you are still working "on a plan" then where did those 5,10 and 20 year returns come from? You say that you have been in the 403(b) business for 20 years. So is it reasonable for us to assume that you have earned your living by selling loaded funds?

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Joel,

 

Now were talking about fees again?? C'mon Joel, your losing credibility with me here.

 

Still in attack mode and not answering any questions...hmmm.

 

Calling me "smart " shows me your lack of professionalism.

 

And, you not paying attention to details. I said that I have been in the TSA business IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER for nearly 20 years. I didn't say I was advising people that whole time.

 

I said I am working on a plan to offer funds at NAV and charge a 1% fee for ONGOING TSA CONTRIBUTIONS...you know monthly contributions - $100. - $200. per month. You see right now to get into a fee based program you have to open it up with 25K or 50K minimum. I'm working to try and get that lowered so more lower/mid income people (you know - like teachers) can get fee based advice IF they want it.

 

Joel - It's important when you attack people that you get the facts straight...your looking like a bully. Calling me names, Accusing me, twisting what I say, and refusing to answer my questions.

 

I've been answering your questions...you need to step up.

 

Tell you what...forget about the Brinker question...

 

Just tell me what you think of the fee schedule I posted.

 

 

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JustMurph,

 

Let me save you the agony. Joel L. Frank is the ONLY person qualified to offer anyone financial advice of any kind. Anyone else has an ulterior motive, specifically you who, as a financial advisor, actually want to get (gasp!) COMPENSATED for your work. (Joel, I'm quite sure, keeps an office in midtown Manhattan, where he sees people and offers his wisdom gratis.)

 

It's OK, though, since dear old Joel wishes us "peace and hope" at the end of each one of his caustic missives.

 

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Hi westerndad,

While I will not speak for everybody, I don't think educators are mad about the pros now as they were a few years ago. Because of the severe market down fall a few years ago, investors are now looking for low costs and diversification. I think we moved beyond the anger. I fully admit I was very angry for a long time because of a $6000 surrender fee I paid to get my money. As far as the pros go now, I just don't see what value they bring to investors, especially to the members of this site.

Past performance is no guarantee for future gains, we all know that but that valid statement gets lost in the debate of which funds do perform better and the pros claim they know. They claim that they can beat Vanguard and TIAA CREF and their indices. The pros can help an investor stay diversified and balanced, they cannot predict which fund or stock will grow more than the indices. If they did, they would not be advisers very long. If their plan beats any of the indices, it’s mostly luck. Luck makes money but so does going to Vegas IF you win.

Steve

 

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Hi Justmurph,

Sure, Joel can be a little coarse around the edges but I am afraid it is you that claims that you can beat the indices with your "plan." That's a significant claim and I think it is correct and proper for Joel to ask anybody who makes these claims, how they do it, what is your allocation and what are the fees. Posting returns is not enough.

Sure looks like we have a tag team match here. Frenchteacher is on your side and I am on Joel's side.

There goes the bell!

Steve

 

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Steve,

 

I have a ton of respect for you and what your doing. We obviously disagree about the value of an advisor because...well...I am one!

 

The fact that your trying to expose the crap that's out there is honorable. I would love to talk with you personally about my experience with the UTLA someday.

 

But where did I say I could beat the indices?

 

I did not even want to post my returns...I think it is in bad taste. But I felt pressured by Joel. I said my returns were average. Go back and read my posts...I'm the one who has been open...even though I know you guys are going to slam me. What kind of response do I get? More accusations!

 

First its "what's your performance" then its "oh yeah - what's your fees" You guys keep jumping from one thing to another and then you say that I said my plan could beat the indices. I just posted my damn returns like I was challenged to do!

 

And nobody is bothering to answer any of my questions.

 

This site is not being fair to me and now you want me to list the funds I use so you can slam me some more?

 

I kept saying that my goal is to meet my clients objectives and that I was committed to the highest ethical standard. I was asking for this boards help to get me there. I thought I was being far from a braggart. I didn't come to this board trying to pick a fight. I asked how I could be of service to educators.

 

I could give a crap about Joel...he's just being antagonistic. But I want to make sure YOU understand where I was coming from. Please go re-read my posts from the beginning and tell me where I was being unreasonable or outlandish. I'M LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS! Joel was looking for a fight with his very first post.

 

Whew...I hope I explianed myself a little to you Steve. I'll stop posting here. you guys have your own thing going and I'm not contributing.

 

But before I go...Would you tell me what you think about the fee schedule I listed serveral times for Joel? I would like your honest opinion.

 

Thanks Steve, If I do the right things the right way, you should be seeing me around town.

 

Namaste,

 

JustMurph

 

 

 

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Guest Sierra

And, you not paying attention to details. I said that I have been in the TSA business IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER for nearly 20 years. I didn't say I was advising people that whole time.

===============================================

So if you were not advising people "that whole time" how could you possibly claim 5, 10 and 20 year returns?

 

You referred to yourself as a "smart " I just repeated it, using quotes. It is wrong for you to say that I resort to name calling.

 

Your first post in this thread was your claim to being "confused". This, I am in total agreement with.

 

Peace and Hope,

Joel L. Frank

 

 

 

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