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Scottyd

Urban Legend Or Truth?

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Guest TR1982

FT,

I appreciate your fairness and willingness to point out the silliness of such threads. I don't want to impugn anybody's character by association. Having said that, I guess I got your attention by the analogy I made. That was my point. Guilt by association on this board is the most ridiculous underlying common thread in many of these discussions. Many of the people here seem to think that they have the right and responsiblity to perform character asassination on an industry. If they want to take that point of view, fine. They should just remember that others can play that game as well since there is plenty of dirty laundry in the education business.

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Guest TR1982
"If the practice isn't widespread and doesn't happen then fine - we know the truth. But what if the rumors I am hearing are true, doesn't that bother you just a little and shouldn't that practice be debated as to whether it is ethical or not - regardless of your position? What happened to good, honest debate?"

 

Scottyd,

I have no problem with honest debate. But you and I both know that someone engaging in this kind of practice is, at a minimum, unethical, and probably is illegal. I can't even believe you would think otherwise. That's what bothers me about it. This kind of practice is not widespread and I think you know that as well. It would boggle my mind that any school division in my state would ever allow something remotely like this to go on. Also, I would challenge anyone in the securities industry to make a case for this practice being legal, much less ethical. That's why I jump to the conclusion that you are denigrating sales people in this business when you bring this up.

 

The underlying point I am troubled by is the assumption that someone who markets and sells products and services that are legal and markets and sells them honestly and legally is unethical or dishonest simply because they do something that others do not like or agree with. They are not immoral or dishonest and people here need to stop suggesting they are. That is wrong. I have seen it many times in comments on this board.

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Now how does that work?..adopt immigrant children and put 403b hats on them? a smell test? pederast teachers or agents? You guys need day jobs! But then this may be what happens when the market is stagnant...some of us go to our baser selves, and need to share. very revealing...Dan

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Guest TR1982

Dan,

Would you care to explain the basis of the statement you made below? Why is it a ripoff? Those are the kind of statements that people like you spout off without any explanation or basis in fact. Do you think it would be helpful to people on this board if I stated that "public education is the biggest scare, a codeword for indoctrination and a ripoff to the parents."?

 

 

"You might ask the advisor about withdrawal costs/termination or exit costs/transfering $ costs...so often what looks good just may not be..funds which buy and sell a lot of stocks have high "execution" costs which come out of the fund in addition to annual expenses..the biggest scare though is "annuity", a codeword for unneeded insurance and ripoff...(just an opinion)"

 

 

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Immigrant adoptees with "403b mine" hats?, smell tests? , pederasty?...See what happens when the summer starts and the year to date market performance is nil? Scotty, these age-ants get to do whatever they want, cruises, substitute teachers, drag the principal in..shame on you for pissing on their little hill...Dan

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Immigrant adoptees with "403b mine" hats?, smell tests? , pederasty?...See what happens when the summer starts and the year to date market performance is nil? Scotty, these age-ants get to do whatever they want, cruises, substitute teachers, drag the principal in..shame on you for pissing on their little hill...Dan

 

No fooling, Dan, I usually like reading your stuff, but I can't even imagine you were sober writing this. I have no freaking idea what you're trying to say.

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From my prospective, I feel that it's very costly for average(403b unwise) teacher to buy these various load funds and annuities from agents who sell them. It seems to me that the agent operates legally, but misleads and takes advantage of the financially uneducated teacher.

 

In selling these funds the more aggressive sales agents will do everything that they could to make the sale. i.e. calling themselves Advisors, bribe via free cruises, influence(403b uneducated) union officials to recommend funds(although poor ones) to the uneducated teachers via union papers, make presentations to school teachers at union meeting at various schools then rewarding the local union chapter representative, use principals and substitute teachers to fill in while they make their pitch.

 

Yes Dan , I agree with you.

 

Ira

 

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Guest TR1982

ira,

Just remember the charges you are making and the sweeping scope of them. Others can make those same charges against you in what you do even though you do your work honestly, ethically, and in a forthright manner. It's amazing to me how peoples perspectives change when the shoe is on the other foot. Remember, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 

Have a nice day.

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Sadly, TR, I think Ira knows exactly what he's saying, as well as the scope of it, and doesn't care. It's infuriating to see people's intellectual laziness. It's much easier to deal in generalities than to do the heavy lifting of seeing both sides of an equation, so the oversimplications fly. We see it all over the place in our society:

 

"Republicans are all self-centered greedheads."

 

"Democrats are tree-hugging liberals."

 

"Teachers have it so easy, with their nine-month work year."

 

And of course, "Sales agents do whatever they have to to make the sale, with no sense of professionalism or caring about clients."

 

 

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Guest TR1982

ira,

It's pretty serious to say someone bribed someone or that an agent deliberately misled someone. I think you might back off that statement if you were not actually present when someone was "misled" or "bribed".

 

I could believe you if you stated that happened to you. But to take the experience beyond your own is unfair and pretty irresponsible. Remember, if you teach, would you want every parent of every child you teach to judge your competence on the experience of one child or parent who was unhappy with your ability? I think not.

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I, too, have seen some despicable behavior from agents in my days teaching. Difference is, I don't extrapolate these things to apply to all agents.

 

By the same token, I've encountered some seriously slipshod work done by teachers that are colleagues of mine. Again, doesn't mean all teachers are bad.

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Hey Scotty,

 

I have not seen a substitute teacher used in the manner you discribed in your post.

 

Hiring a sub to teach a class so that you can sell to one teacher does not seem like an effective use of the substitute.

 

I have seen substitute and full time teachers become reps and use their connections to get access to teachers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest Sierra

How about combining 10 classes with one substitute so the sales pitch can be made to 10 teachers?

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Hi,

 

"I, too, have seen some despicable behavior from agents in my days teaching. Difference is, I don't extrapolate these things to apply to all agents"

 

I believe that I stated, "In selling these funds the more aggressive sales agents will do everything ...........", (not all sales agents).

 

A question arises, What percentage of sales agents should be allowable to have poor unethical sales behaviors?

 

Apparently, some of this small sampling of posters , including , you French Teacher(I'm sorry, but I don't know your name) have come across, " despicable behavior from agents".

I think that the figure should be zero or close to. People who are investing their savings deserve a fair break.

Also as the messenger of the unethical actions that I saw by sales agents and union reps in the district where I worked, I feel that I the reporter was under strutiny, not the 403b sales industry in the district where I worked, and perhaps other districts, if those who reported on this site are or were in other districts.

 

Ira

 

Ira

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