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Dan Otter

How Valuable Is The M&e?

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Guest Sierra

FT: Would you like to take a re-test?

 

TR: This is not an essay type of test but rather a short answer variety that requires a T for true or an F for false. Note: you can't answer with half a "T" and half an "F" as you have done in your essay. It is 100% "F" OR 100% "T"

 

You are now the only two left in the room. I will collect your papers in two minutes.

 

 

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Joel, you're actually getting more annoying than usual. Which is saying something.

 

By my count, you, Scotty and Danc are saying one thing; I, TR and chadposner are saying something different. Only you would look at a 3-3 tie and call it a victory.

 

Strike that, actually: we've consulted two annuity companies, ING and TIAA-CREF, and they've broken the tie in our favor!

 

Rather than just cherry-pick the quotes from only those people who agree with us, I'm perfectly content to agree to disagree. Nothing you say will convince me of the definitive existence of an M&E in a fixed annuity, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, so further dialogue is pointless.

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Guest Sierra

FT: If you feel I'm annoying you, you are free to ignore me.

 

You have yet to speak to an ACTUARY. After you do I'm sure you will agree with me and Scott along with the Genworth actuary that TR spoke to and the one that I spoke to. You at least owe it to yourself to speak with an actuary of your own choosing. And why not ask your rep/CFP at ING what his opinion is. I assure you he will agree with Scott and Me.

 

TR: Please hand in your paper.

 

 

 

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And why not ask your rep/CFP at ING what his opinion is. I assure you he will agree with Scott and Me.

 

 

Given the fact that every representative from every company that either you or I has spoken to has agreed with me so far, what makes you think for a moment that my CFP will agree with you? TR's a financial planner, and he doesn't. Chadposner is a financial planner, and he doesn't.

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Guest TR1982

Sierra,

I will never concede that the my actuary friend said there is an M&E fee in fixed annuity. He NEVER said that. Beyond that, I am really bored with this and don't want to respond anymore. This is nit picking and it won't add anything to the discussion.

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Guest Sierra
Sierra,

I will never concede that the my actuary friend said there is an M&E fee in fixed annuity. He NEVER said that. Beyond that, I am really bored with this and don't want to respond anymore. This is nit picking and it won't add anything to the discussion.

TR: But in your "essay" response to your T/F test you said the ME fee did apply but only during the annuitization period. Are you now asserting that it does not apply to the annuitization period?

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Guest Sierra
And why not ask your rep/CFP at ING what his opinion is.  I assure you he will agree with Scott and Me.

 

 

Given the fact that every representative from every company that either you or I has spoken to has agreed with me so far, what makes you think for a moment that my CFP will agree with you? TR's a financial planner, and he doesn't. Chadposner is a financial planner, and he doesn't.

FT our French Teacher: How do they say in French? "You need to speak with an actuary"

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Guest Sierra

TR and FT: Why don't you address your remarks to Scott as well as me? TR: Why don't you accuse Scott of "nip picking"

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And why not ask your rep/CFP at ING what his opinion is.  I assure you he will agree with Scott and Me.

 

 

Given the fact that every representative from every company that either you or I has spoken to has agreed with me so far, what makes you think for a moment that my CFP will agree with you? TR's a financial planner, and he doesn't. Chadposner is a financial planner, and he doesn't.

FT our French Teacher: How do they say in French? "You need to speak with an actuary"

 

Don't you ever get tired of this crap, Joel?

 

"Ask a financial planner; they'll agree with me!"

 

"I did...I asked two of them, and they both disagree with you."

 

"Well, you need to ask a company that issues annuities; THEY'll agree with me."

 

"I called TIAA-CREF and ING; they both disagree with you."

 

"Well, you have to ask an actuary; an actuary will surely agree with me."

 

"TR called an actuary from Genworth; he doesn't agree with you."

 

and now...

 

"FT, you have to call an actuary."

 

Presumably, this will be a different actuary? I repeat TR's question from before: how many actuaries have to disagree with you before you will AT LEAST agree to disagree? I have actually done all the fact-checking you've asked me to do, and haven't found a single voice to lend credence to what you're saying. Obviously, I'm not going to continue this little charade.

 

I said before, and I'll say again: you think you're right, and can cherry-pick quotes to "prove" your point. Bully for you. I began this discussion not at all sure, and asked a number of different people, none of whom agree with you. So I'm now convinced that fixed annuities carry no M&E fee. Hunting down one more CFP like Scottyd or one more like TR will do nothing to settle this. It's over.

 

Let. It. Go.

 

 

 

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Hey Folks,

 

I concur with FT. It is time to put this argument to sleep which may be what is happening to anyone who ventures into this thread.

 

Dan Otter

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Guest Sierra
TR, FT, Sierra,

 

There is an implicit M in fixed accounts, after all the only reason a Fixed annuity enjoys tax-deferral benefits is because of its insurance components. Now the insurance may only be the account value. But the M pays for the guaranteed payments that are guaranteed in the contract. Life expectancies change and and insurance company is locked into the contract it writes and thus has some risk, which is embodied in an implicit M.

 

ScottyD

FT: Scott posted this long after he categorized the debate as being "stupid".

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Guest Sierra

Dan,

 

How can an intelligent discussion take place on a topic entitled "How Valuable Is the ME fee" when some regular posters to these threads insist there is no ME fee associated with fixed annuities?

 

FT: Please open up to page 3 in your Guaranteed Accumulation Account Prospectus that you have in your possession as a customer of ING. This Prospectus is dated April 29, 2005. The last paragraph says: "Fees and Other Deductions. We do not make deductions from amounts in GAA to cover mortality and expense risks. Rather, we consider these risks when determining the credited rate."

 

Peace and hope,

Joel

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Guest Sierra
Joel, if you're insisting that there is such a thing as an M&E fee for a fixed annuity, it should be no trouble to quote one from a prospectus. Please do so. Two financial advisors (TR & Chad) have written here insisting there is no such , and a Genworth actuary has been quoted. The simplest way to settle this is to quote from a prospectus. If you can't find an M&E fee in a prospectus for a fixed annuity, then there is simply no such thing.

 

 

FT: Would you like to reconsider your answer to the T/F test?

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